Breslau

@Willi Krause, your analysis seems to use the loaded language of professional victimhood and civil-rights mania. I wouldn't say the U.S. stole Mexican land for example; if you actually are schooled in history, Mexico needed money, lots of money, to pay debts, and sold off a lot of what is now the Southwestern United States to do so. Except maybe for Texas: anglophone settlers did NOT learn Spanish and adopt the Catholic faith as Mexico wanted, and joined the United States instead.
It is getting so bad, all this PC stuff, that I am thinking of buying a pre-1960, pre-hippie encyclopedia so some truth is preserved...

.... would like to lend support to Willi Krause's concicely argued case about the unfaireness of the frontier shift in favour of Stalin's Russia. It had horrific consequences on people and land, especially in Silesia, not just then, but to this very day.

Barbara N.

Hi Ian Williams,no Nicholas-Strasse is registered in Wroclaw/Breslau before 1945. There is a Nicholaistrasse under the following link
http://www.breslau-wroclaw.de/de/breslau/geographic/street/?streetname=Nikolaistrasse --
Other than that there is a Niklasweg under the link:
http://www.breslau-wroclaw.de/de/breslau/geographic/street/?streetname=Niklasweg -- Give it a try! And good luck!

Where is Nicholas Strasse, Breslau?

Many of you who have commented here are from USA so you know a thing or two about invading sovereign countries without so much as a declaration of war (ask an Iraqi about that)or stealing land that is not yours (ask a Mexican about that). So don't give us that holier than thou nonsense. Every country has committed murder, and USA is no exception to that.

Mark and Vince are two of the most ignorant people. The Russians have always had a history of raping, plundering and murder. Did the Germans commit murder? Sure. Did the Allies commit murder when (a) the Russians invaded eastern Europe. (b) the Allies purposely bombed the ceners of German cities to murder women, children and old people and (c) after the war starve German POWs? Yes to all three. In the final analysis the Allies were no better than the Germans. They won so they write the books.

Why are the Russians not held to their responsibility in stealing Polish land and taking it out of Germany to pay Poland. You want to talk murder? Stalin murdered more people on his worst day than Hitler did on his best. There's nothing worse than fooling yourselves about it but if that makes you feel good, and cements your hatred for the Germans then knock yourself out. You must be very insecure people.

nobody in all the comments i've read talks about a prison camp that was in Breslau, during W.W.2 or very close by. it was called STALAG 10 - In this camp my father was a prisoner for several years. He was taken prisoner in 1940 as he was a soldier in Belgium, he had a gun but no bullets, as other soldiers had bullets but no guns. belgium was not prepared for war, and its soldiers were not even properly armed. But nevertheless he was taken prisoner and after being liberated, he suffered during his whole life of the consequences of the horible treatment he received. He weighted 30 kg when he came back to Belgium, a man, 37 years old, and he looked like
a scarecraw. Does anybody know about this camp in Breslau? Thank you for answering.

Great article. Mother born in Breslau 1938. Then moved to Striegau (Strzegom). don't know how to get in touch with other reviewers.

I am writing a novel about my mother living in Sosnowka in 1938-1939, near Jelina Gora. If anyone has any information about the area during this time, please email me. Thank you

We lived in Breslau during WWII until January 1940- 1945.(i was 4-9) It was my mothers birthplace March 1912 Gertrude Agnes Wilde then married to Hans Schletze.
Would like to reconnect with anyone who lived there at the same time.
Thank You

Great information on history and places to see/stay. Would like information on WWII
airman shot down on 17 april 1945 safely landing near this town. He was never heard of again and his P-51 Mustang has not been found. His name was Col Elwin Righetti flying Kattydid. Crash landed in tact and presumed killed by cilvillians. His last bearing was 270 degrese heading after straffing mission across Riesa-Canitz Airfield or Airfield north of Dresden. An intire P-51 Mustang in-tact could not disapear, unless the Russions took it a couple weeks later when they arrived. any information is appreiciated. I am retired Military and would fly there if get respounces. thank you, Robert St. John 405 Holiday Dr. Lansing Kansas 66043 Phone 913-727-1907. I can only speak English.

The history of the name "BRESLAU" in all its variations over 700 years is recorded in Paul Hefftner's "URSPRUNG UND BEDEUTUNG DER ORTSNAMEN IM STADTKREIS BRESLAU - Breslau 1909" (www.sbc.org.pl) as follows: ""These are the names for Breslau in early GERMAN documents: 1280 "stat Wratislaw", 1295 "Wrezlaw", 1301 "Wraislaw", 1302 "Bretzla", 1314 and 1334 "stat zu Breslau", 1314 and 1357 "Brezlaw", 1324 "Bretzlav" and "Bretzlau", 1327 "stat czu Wretslaw", 1333 until 1370 on a number of occasions "Breczlaw", 1337 "Wratislauia" (Latin), 1339 "Breslou", 1348 and 1351 "Breslaw" and "cives Wraczlauiensis" (Latin), 1350 "Bresslawe" and "stat zu Presslaw". 1359, 1361, 1363, 1367 "Bresslow", 1359 "Bresslaw", 1360 "Breslow", 1367 "Brezslaw", 1371 "Bresslau" and "Bretzlaw", 1452 until 1620 repeatedly "Breßlaw", 1453 until 1800 invariably "Breßlau", 1555 and 1561 "Presslaw", 1713, 1792, 1801 and from then on exclusively "Breslau".
....Until 1945. In conversation with my Polish friends I refer to it as Wroclaw whilst they, in return, call it Breslau to please me. Thankfully, we have come a long way since 1945.

Germans have always called this town by the name of "Breslau" in modern times, and the Poles, likewise, have always, in modern times, called it "Wroclaw". It's name has only changed in English because of the change of frontiers; but if you examine Polish maps before 1945 the then German town was known to the Poles as "Wroclaw", just like today it is still known in German as "Breslau". The two versions do have a common origin, apparently.

Germans have always called this town by the name of "Breslau" in modern times, and the Poles, likewise, have always, in modern times, called it "Wroclaw". It's name has only changed in English because of the change of frontiers; but if you examine Polish maps before 1945 the then German town was known to the Poles as "Wroclaw", just like today it is still known in German as "Breslau". The two versions do have a common origin, apparently.

Racism in Germany was not started by the Nazi party,it was started by the founder of the Lutheran church when the jews did not want to convert.His ideas was used by hitler.Richard Wagner and other philosofers were the one who fueled hitler to that extent.My mother was born in breslau and her family came from there bit she has very little recolection of that place since she was only 4 when the war started and they moved her to a camp.

My great-grandfather was born in Poland when it was under Austrian rule so though he spoke Polish and was Polish he listed his birth place as Austria. My father-in-law whose birth certificate says he was born in Austria was Italian (Austria took it over at that time) and only spoke Italian and considered himself Italian as did all all his relatives and neighbors. During WWII his brother and other relatives were killed by American bombs. When WWII ended, my husband's family and my husband, a newborn, left the area because of the Russian takeover. They went to a refugee camp in Italy and ten years later came to America. After WWII the place he came from was called Yugoslavia. Now it is called Croatia. My husband and I visited there recently and saw where his mother and father were married, etc. They used to own a lot of land but lost it all after the war. My point is that in Europe this happened all the time. Poland used to be a huge country but was wiped off the map for 123 years when Austria, Prussia, Germany, and Russia took as much of it as they could. That is just the way it was in Europe, one day you were Polish or Italian or whatever and the next day you woke up and were another nationality. If you were lucky you did not have to leave but often you were not that lucky. Many Poles, were thrown out of the ancestral lands just as many other nationalities were. I think most Europeans have learned to forgive but I don't think they should forget simply because these things should never happen in Europe again. It still happens in many other countries, Africa, for example, so it is obviously an evil fact of life, but we should learn from history so it does not happen again. We should not be hating people we never knew who had little to do with the decisions of the higher powers who moved them from place to place or who chased them out of their lands.

For a long time I found no such article, and am glad such feelings on the subject are expressed. I have visited Breslau/Wroclaw a number of times and have heard the Polish justification for its resettlement. I can't quite see its moral strength, and can only put it down to the spoils of war and victors' justice.

What I also find sad is the huge cultural loss. Seeing the architecture of Breslau, thinking of the former high station of such institutions as Breslau Opera, I wish Wroclaw could achieve even half of this. Until such time I can only see it all as a terrible waste.

I am pleased to note that now a number of old inscriptions are being uncovered (having been crudely scrubbed out in former times), and that some of the city's German heritage is being recognised.

This article has been written with care to explain both sides of the ugly history of Breslau/Wroclaw. My grandmother was one of the thousands of refugees to flee the city with her mother and other young siblings. She was 9 years old during the exodus and was injured during the march and left paraplegic in a Czech Lazaret. I talked many times with her about her experience both during the war as well as during the DDR years. I lived with her for years in Brandenburg, Germany and came to understand and feel her pain and bitterness. We even made a trip back to her home town of Ohlau/Olava about 15 miles South of Breslau. There we met so many kind and friendly people with stories of their own. My grandmother discovered many people who also had suffered and her heart softened to know that everyone had suffered. I think she felt that everything had been stolen by cheerful victors when in fact they were victims themselves and had only inherited the ruins of Hitlers damned war. She truly saw that it was a horrific war started by Hitler in which millions died. She had been lucky enough to survive.

I'll shed no tears over anything that happened to Brelau/Wroclaw. My parents lived there before WW2 and were quite well to do, owning a factory and a separate business. The Nazis took it all away because they were Jews and not one former non-jewish friend gave a damn or tried to help them. Instead they stood and cheered for their heroes who goosestepped around like jerks.
To my way of thinking, not nearly enough Nazis were killed by the Russians and the Poles likewise deserve every bit of misery because they were only slightly less murderous than the Nazis.

Interesting debates often untroubled by facts. I can recommend Davies and Moorehouse book Microcosm which looks at history of Wroclaw/Breslau/Vretislav over centuries as a microcosm of Europe.Boundaries and peoples have constantly ebbed and flowed in both peaceful and violent changes.A big book on a big topic.

As far as I know the name Wrocl-aw didn't exist before. The official name of the town was Wratislavia until king Fred changed it into Breslau, that originated as a bad prononciation of Wratislavia. Wroclaw was later on artificially derived by a linguist from the Slav name Wratislavia. So wether Breslau or Wroclaw, both refer to the original slav name of the location.

I appreciate your article. I have a dear friend, Martha, who was born in Breslau and watched the Russian's blow the farm she lived on to pieces. She had to flee with her ten younger siblings and find homes for them all-including herself. I am interested in any public records of the city and the battles/siege that took place there. Can you offer any insights? Thanks again for the History lesson!

Great article! Thanks for the information. My father and his family were expelled, but only years after having lost their home, spending time in a camp and then been relocated to a communal farm. The experiences of his childhood remained with my father his whole life. I hope too, to one day visit the places in Poland my family called home. It would honour my father's memory and give my children a piece of their history.

I liked your article.
Can you tell me if there is a list of German families who were evicted at the end of WW2

Wolyn/Wolynia was EASTERN POLAND, between
Lublin and Kiev. also known as Polska Republika 1 and Polska Republika II. these people were hammered by the Germans and then by the Russian army supposedly saving Poland in a treaty with Churchill. Germany and Russian tried to wipe Poland off the map. Until people see the big picture and see how the ugliness in human nature can be released, by bad politics, they will always find fault. it happened, what can they do now, its time to get on with life and make the world a better place for our children. work with what you have, dont keep bitterness and hate over what you lost, it is gone and unless you go back in time, history cannot be changed, but we can make the future better.

the history of the area is most interesting, with border changes and those that rebuild a city should be given many accolades, but when war and politice combine everyone is a victim.

did the Polish people have a choice, escaping from Soviet Genocide in Western Poland, as did the Germans, Czechs, and many other nationalities who would not conform to the Soviet System.

dont forget, that while Poland was being attack from the front by Germans, it was also being squeezed and wiped out by Germany's buddy at the time Russia. about 40-60,000 Polish people perished under the Soviets, along with Germans, who lived side by side in peace, until the Soviets either expelled them or murdered them in the area which is now Ukraine.

Many of the German/Polish villages on the Soviet side have been totally wiped out, no longer exist or the names have been changed.look at Wolynia/Volynhnia/Wolyn and Katyn.

The Polish people in other areas lived side by side in peace with Germans, even married them, until Russia went on a Genocide rampage, changing borders and gave them no choice but to conform, escape or die.

it was wrong what happened to the city and people hurt, but the Polish had no choice, they lost everything, lucky to stay alive, between the Germany and Russia during WWII.

In my view, pretty much all of it was unjust. You can point fingers at each other all day long, in the end, virtually every nation that was involved in that horrific war did something unjust. Axis and Allied alike. The nazis committed some horrible deeds before and during the war. The soviets were nearly as bad. Then after the war, its victims exacted their revenge, including the poles and czechs upon the ethnic germans living withing their borders. There is plenty of blame to go around. Stop pointing the finger at each other and learn to live together in peace without lingering resentment and a "they deserved what they got" attitude. It has no place in todays world.

For all of you who think that relocation of Germans from what is now western Poland was unjust, please consider what Germans had in store for Poles once they would win the war, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost . This was actually being implemented during the war and none other than Horst Köhler German ex president was born in one of the confiscated farms near Skierbieszów in Lublin region. I guess sometimes one rips what one sows.

You are welcome to Lerge. I completely understand what you say regarding european integration. Nationalities will always be important and will never disappear and it will take generations before people think of themselves as european as well as their individual nationalities. It will also take generations for people to put the past in the past. From the comments I see here, there still seem to be people that think the Germans, Poles, Russians etc all need to atone for the mis-deeds committed during and after WWII. Maybe that will happen and maybe not. We are now almost 100 years beyond WWI and that generation is almost all gone. The WWII generation will be gone in the next 30 years or so. WWII and Nazism will never be forgotten but its witnesses will be gone and so will those who believe the borders should be moved and realigned in order to re-claim a distant past. Yes, Pomerania was German for 1000 years, but it is Polish now and that is not likely to change. Its largest city, Szczecin (Stettin) is less than 100 miles from Berlin and it is entirely polish. No germans live there. It is up to all of us to accept the results of WWII. Longing for a past that was destroyed in a horrific war will not change the realities of today. Most of the border changes in the east were insisted upon by the Soviets. They wanted the German border moved as far west as they could get it. That way they could seize eastern Poland for themselves thereby shifting the entire polish nation geographically westward. The russians made the biggest land grab of all. I don't agree with it and the ethnic cleansing that followed but it is a reality that we must accept 65 years later.

"""Maybe what happened in Wroclaw is a good thing in some way? The Germans were evicted so they all stayed together as Germans in their country."" That is certainly a novel way of looking at it which would never have occurred to me. "...It wouldn't have occurred to all of the ethnic Germans that were trapped or left behind. "Verzicht ist Verrat.", Willy Brandt said. Well, Die ethnischen Deutschen in Polen und anderswohin wurden sicher verraten. There are more than 152,897 ethnic Germans in Poland...unofficially, of course. ;-)

Stell dich nicht so blöd an, Karl! The truth hurts, I know. Denial isn't a river in Egypt. No one said that Germans weren't Nazis, but what is true, is that others joined the party.At least 350,000 non-German volunteers from around 16 occupied countries willingly served in Waffen SS combat units from 1940-1945. Enlistment rolls indicate more than 125,000 West Europeans volunteered of their own free will. 220,000 Eastern European also joined. The one-sided guilt trip will end as more is re-discovered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

Of course Nazism was not German, Germans were duped by eastern Europeans to bolive so along with the rest of the world. It was a ploy to force Germans into a war so Germany anihilates itself.

Hallo allerseits! Ran across an interesting site that discusses the question of on-gong German guilt. Very insightful for those who deeply ponders such existential matters. In my view, Germany collectively has been the World's WWII "Sündenbock" for the last 65 years. For those less inclined, there has always been a difference between Germans (those holdinging German citizenship) and NAZI's (those hold party membership). NAZI's weren't only German, as is now being confirmed through the discovery and release of many data sources throughout the World...especially from Eastern Europe and Russia. No modern German should allow themselves to unjustly be stigmatized or harassed. Contrived xenophobic disrimination at it's worst. Ich bin stolz, ein Deutscher zu sein.

--Jedem das Seine (Suum cuique)--

http://atlanticreview.org/archives/161-US-Fulbrighter-probes-the-question-of-on-going-German-guilt.html

I intend visiting Wroclaw/Breslau this summer. I'm looking forward to my visit. It seems that the crimes of the Nazis have been expediently used for a land grab.

The right of residency is not automatic in Europe and Poland has a right of "reserve" meaning that it can , and does , limit the ammount of Land Germans can buy and own in Poland. Pomerania was German for over 1000 years, 15 million people were forcibly removed from their lands in the most horrific conditions during peacetime and Poland has not one single monument to the "affair". Poland has profited from the expulsions and has no regrets about the dead. 3 Million people died, after the war was finished in Poland , simply for being German.Poland always plays the victim never the instigater but 3 million innocent people have been forgotten

The right of Germans to buy land in Poland is limited and in Polish law they are the only EU population that has limited rights. The right of EU citizens to residence in any other EU country is not an automatic right. The right to work is but not to reside, perhaps you need to re read the treaty. Germans have limited rights and restricted to the ammount of land they can own in Poland. Besides the ethnic cleansing of Germans from Germany is the largest ever peacetime ethnic cleansing, with the largest death toll in recent history. 3 Million dead (with an estimated 3 million ancillary deaths from the deportation) in the expulsions alone. A shame on Poland and on Europe.

Jiminlgb, I owe you a "Thank you" for your sympathetic comment to my previous post. Regarding the ability to live "anywhere in Europe" now: whilst this is true, I think that the individual nationalities still prefer to identify themselves as such, rather than being called "Europeans". Having lived in Britain for 40 years, I cannot detect the slightest wish to be European rather than British. The same applies to the other countries. Individual cultures and historical backgrounds are very diverse, each with its own 1.5 millennia of history. Nobody here wants to "blend" into being "European", however persistenly politicians promote such an agenda. To have a group of diverse nations committed to cooperation and peaceful coexistence is, to my mind, a far greater achievement and makes life within Europe far more interesting. That "past misdeeds" take much longer to heal has just been brought to our notice again through the air-tragedy in Poland, reminding us of the events at Katyn 70 years ago. I wrote to my Polish friends to extend our sympathy and at the same time to express my gladness that now at last, irrespective of our national differences, we can draw alongside each other across the borders.

TD makes a good point. Since joining the EU, Poles, Germans as well as all the other nationalities of the EU can live anywhere in the EU member countries. There are already many Germans living in Poland. Some were never expelled in the first place. I recently read that the ethnic German population in mid-silesia around the area of Brzeg or Opole is large enough that in some towns there is dual Polish/German signage. Also, in recent years some 6000 ethinc Germans from around the former Soviet Union have moved into the Kaliningrad Oblast of Russia (the russian portion of the former E. Prussia). As Europeans are now free to move about within the EU in the same manner that we can move from state to state here in the U.S., their societies will become more and more blended. Over time, their "nationality" will not matter so much as just being European. This will reduce the desire of a very few to re-align national borders in the name of correcting past mis-deeds.

Q "The organisation of the Expellees have been nothing but humble in their actions and have asked for little, a full right to return and to buy Land and houses in their (old) homeland with the same rights as Poles would be a good start. A policy of right to return should be intitated and the healing , and forgiveness on both sides can begin" Q
Dear Godstar, I am sure there were problems in the past but since 2004 they can do exactly that. That is what the European Union and it's law is here for. I live in Wroclaw now but plan to move to Portugal for my retirement. In the next building there is a Danish family who have moved here in 2001 and an Austrian bought a flat not far from my own 3-4 years ago as he moved here after getting a job in Poland. They can vote in local elections as any other Polish citizen. And so can Poles who live in the other 26 countries in the EU. We cross borders without passports, live, buy land and work legally in other EU countries.

The annexation of German lands after the war and the continual occupation by Poland , with little or no regard to the history of these regions or the suffering of the people involved is a stain on Poland and an insult to the descendants.The lands annexed to the east of Poland (the Curzon line or the Kresy) were not occupied on the whole by Poles but by Ukranians. There were many cities like Lwow that did have majority Polish populations, the country being majority non Polish, and the fact that they were pushed West wards was wrong but in no way does 2 wrongs make a right. The expulsions and the aradour to remove all traces of German influence , and the rewriting of history to name these areas as part of the Piast lands is a shame that was born out of communist ideology to encourage settlement in the Prussian lands. I feel sorry for the way in which the expellees were and still are treated to this day. it is remarkable that some of the contributors have had pleasant experiences in their return visits but I feel that there is still a great reluctance in Poland to accept their part in the largest ethnic cleansing campaign in peacetime. Over 15 million ethnic Germans were removed with an estimated 3 million dying prior to arriving in the New Germany; with many more dying upon arrival from disease and starvation. The organisation of the Expellees have been nothing but humble in their actions and have asked for little, a full right to return and to buy Land and houses in their (old) homeland with the same rights as Poles would be a good start. A policy of right to return should be intitated and the healing , and forgiveness on both sides can begin

"...ya no es violencia lo que hacemos...sino que la "justicia" impulsa sencillamente a conducirse brutalmente. De esta "justicia" surge constantemente la nueva y espantosa INJUSTICIA para los hombres que pierden su patria y su propiedad en nombre de la supuesta "justicia".
Tomado de "Ideas sobre el este aleman" por Walter v. Molo.

I am one of those still remember the suffering of the period between 1937 and today. Therefore I feel with the people around the world facing comparable fate. Especially the people of Palistina.

To Lerge in the U.K. I cannot imagine what it must be like for you to visit your former homeland considering the circumstances that you left under. We Americans tend to be very egotistical and full of ourselves. The U.S. has never lost territory to another nation and had its citizens forcably expelled. I was born in metro Los Angeles, as was my mother and grandparents. At least one branch of my family has been in So California for nearly 100 years. Although I now live in Seattle WA, I take comfort in the fact that I can still visit the places where I lived and went to school as well as visit family that still lives there. If the same thing had happened to me, as has happened to you, I am not sure I could ever go back. I admire your strength for being able to go back to re-visit a place that would have too many painful memories for me. It is also admirable that the Polish citizens that now live in Wroklaw/Breslau and the rest of Silesia and Pomerania are able to put aside the past and treat you and other former residents with courtesey and respect. Others in this crazy world we live in should take note.

Having now read so much of history, back even to the French-Prussian War in 1870/71, I comment as one who has returned to Silesia a number of times to revisit the places of my ancestors and my roots. In Breslau, I was invited into the house, and room, were I was born. Further north on the banks of the Oder I was allowed to visit my grandparents home. I had tea in my grandmother's former kitchen, and in the garden remembered the snowman we made. I inspected the now delapidated house built by my great-great-grandfather as the poshest hotel in town and across the square was able to decipher the almost illegible gravestone of my great-great-great-grandfather. I stood in the ruins of the church where my grandparents were married and where a gravestone of even further ancestors remains. In every place I found helpful, friendly, and considerate people. And some have become true friends.
Nevertheless, my sense of loss is as acute as ever and increases with every visit. And my early childhood memories of expulsion, fear, flight, and deprivation have not dimmed. My generation, although German, needs to be allowed to grieve. What are mere facts of history to some are still acutely painful facts to those who had to endure them.

To respond to what Bronxite says about my previous post. Let me clarify. First, the treaty that defined the U.S./Canadian border was a negotiated treaty, not imposed, and the U.S. was never required to give up territory already recognized as part of the U.S. Apples to oranges on that one. The treaty of Versailles was not the only thing that contributed to WWII but it was one of the principle things. For one thing, yes the French did seethe with anger after the Franco-Prussian war of 1871 and their desire for revenge over the loss of Alsace (the land of my ancestors) and part of Lorraine helped fuel their desire to arrange military alliances againsed Germany (the tirple entante). The Versailles treaty also required Germany to give up territory to nations than did not even participate in the conflict (Netherlands, Denmark)stripped her of all overseas posessions, and required Germany to accept all responsibility for a war that all of the major european powers at the time had a hand in starting. The hyperinflation was caused by the reparations payments because they were so high that the only way to pay them on schedule was to print more money. And when Germany didn't in the 1920s, the French occupied the Ruhr. The Mark became worthless. Germany was also required to give away its natural resources as well, such as coal from the Saar valley, to France and Italy. Driving up the price of these commodities at home. Their navy was locked up in Scapa Flow Scotland and their army was reduced to only 100,000. Not even enough to defend the country when Lithuania siezed the Memel area in 1920. All of this was seen as a humiliation by the German people. The nazis tapped into this and took advantage of it. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to justify the rise of the nazis and I believe that the German people should have seen what Hitler was doing and stopped him. I am just saying that the Versailles treaty opened the door and the nazis simply walked through it.

"United States" makes a good point that countries have been grabbing each other's land for centuries. It also must have been pretty cruddy for him to have to deal as a child with his classmates giving him Nazi salutes. But his idea of "just moving on" throws away valuable material from which we can learn an enormous amount. Take his narrative that the Treaty of Versailles led Germans to seethe in anger and provoked WWII. When the French paid Germany an enormous indemnity as the losers of the Franco-Prussian War, did they "seethe in anger" as a result which led to WWI? Americans elected Polk in 1844 with the slogan of 54 40 or fight (meaning that the US was entitled to British Columbia and Alberta and if it didn't get it, it should fight Great Britain). But when a treaty a few years later continued the border from Minnesota to the Pacific, did Americans "seethe in anger". Did the reparations cause the hyperinflaction of 1923, or was it the printing press? All I'm suggesting is that the standard narrative, "Treaty of Versailles leads to WWII" has lots of flaws in it as well as some validity. Why should we care at this point? Because we want to answer the underlying question of why someone will fight and die in one generation for something that his counterpart a generation or two later would find daft. How do societies fixate on their priorities? Why are "historic" German lands in the east not an issue for Germany but "historic" Kosovo is certainly an issue for Serbia even though few Serbs live in Kosovo. Why is moving to pre-67 Israel (as against the West Bank or Gaza) a priority for Palastinian refugees in Lebanon who have never even been to either Israel, the West Bank or Gaza? Part of it is that we're conditioned to accept narratives as truth when, in fact, they're only narratives. That's what makes this area a goldmine of information.

I have read all the previous comments and found it amazing at how much bias still exists some 60 odd years after WWII. Yes, the nazi's committed horrible attrocities during the war and yes, the russians, poles, czechs etc. all exacted their revenge. It is a part of history that neither side should forget less they might repeat it in the future. Did the soviets have the right to annex nearly 1/3 of poland? Did the poles have the right to almost 25% of Germany? That is a question that may never be answered but the reality is that the current borders in place today have been agreed upon by all the nations involved and germans and poles alike no longer inhabit their former eastern lands. Moving the borders now would be rediculous. Lets not forget that the borders in europe have been shifting for centuries. Some here talk of the Germans "siezing" polish territory during the middle ages but fail to mention that the poles also conquered territory in their past. In the 16th century poland was the 2nd largest country in europe after russia and encompassed all of what is now poland, lithuania, latvia, belarus and western ukrane including kiev. Europeans have been siezing each others territory for centuries. The ottomans of turkey conquered all of southeast europe up to the gates of Vienna and Napoleon marched his troops all the way to Moscow in an attempt to conquer the entire continent. Stop trying to proclaim innocence while pointing the finger of guilt at each other and just learn to live together in peace. As for the rise of the nazis, you can thank the treaty of versailles for that. No single thing did as much to create the perfect conditions for the rise of nazism than a treaty that did more to punish than to create a lasting peace. I don't know of anyone, especially us arrogant americans, that would not seethe with anger at seeing their country cut in two and carved up like a pie, and then told that they will be making war reparations that they could not afford until 1988!! (originally, modified later). It wrecked the economy and created run-away inflation and fostered an anger and resentment that the nazis gleefuly took advantage of. I am of german ancestry and know full well that germans will never live down their nazi past (I got the nazi salute in school as a child when others learned of my german heritage). Likewise, the russians probably wont live down their soviet past either. Three things regarding history. Acknowledge, accept, move on. The war is over.

JC, the war was certainly needless. There was no need for German racism, German militarism or the Nazi belief that life is a ruthless struggle in which the strong dominate (and should dominate) the weak. That was what "ordinary" Germans bought into, including many Germans in Breslau. Your grandfather may have been a Social Democrat in 1939, may have felt in 1939 that the destruction of Warsaw was barbaric, and may have brought up your mother's brother to reject the principles of the Hitler youth, but the odds are against it. War is horrible and randomly produces vicitms on a massive scale. The English and French learned that after WWI and did everything they could to avoid its repetition. Had Germans learned that lesson, too, there would have been no WWII. But it took the flight of your mother as a child in sub-zero weather, the death of her brother, the loss of their possessions, and that experience repeated many times over in Germany, 1945 so that ordinary people would separate themselve in their "zero hour" from the social building blocks of Nazism. That Germans did so successfully is a tribute to them and to humanity. That that's what it took to get them to do so illuminates horrible flaws in human nature. The question that it leaves is how to get people to reject blatent lies and massive moral ugliness without having to have your mother chased from her home in sub-zero weather.

Don't usually comment on these things but felt I had to on this one. I just wonder how many of the people commenting have any connection to Breslau, from the sounds of it not many. Its still a very emotive subject for those of us whose families had to leave the city. My mother as a young girl walked out of the city with her mother in sub-zero temperatures, in January 1945, which killed many of the refugees. Her brother was killed and father badly injured in the seige, they lost everything but the clothes on their back and the few possessions they could carry. She wasn't to see her homeland for another 50 years (her mother never returned. When we paid a long awaited visit a few years ago we were devastated to find that all traces of its German past had been erased, even down to the graves in the Cathedral. My mother will never return its too painful for her. It is for her and the millions of refugees from the east that I am writing this, and urge you all to remember these were just ordinary people, like you, whose lives were devastated, they were also victims of this needless war.

Lerge, Wikipedia had the following on the Sudetenland: "On 4 December 1938 there were elections in Reichsgau Sudetenland, in which 97.32% of the adult population voted for NSDAP. About a half million Sudeten Germans joined the Nazi Party which was 17.34% of the German population in Sudetenland (the average NSDAP participation in Nazi Germany was 7.85%). This means the Sudetenland was the most "pro-Nazi" region in the Third Reich." As a result of the Munich agreement, the Germans required the expulsion of all Czechs from the Sudetenland. Do you really think that after WWII, Czechs should still have been required to have Sudeten Germans as their countrymen?

Germans in Danzig before WWII largely endorsed Nazi rule and incorporation into the Reich even though they were under the jurisdiction of the League of Nations. They controlled the mouth of the Vistula. Should the Poles nevertheless have accepted that continued control after WWII?

The Inter-War Polish corridor was largely ethnically Polish, but Germany had no problem incorporating it into the Reich when they had the power to do so. Should Poles have put themselves at the end of WWII in the position where they had to risk that again?

The current German-Polish border is much shorter and much more defensible than the pre-WWII Polish-German border. Were Polish interests in a defensible border after WWII of no importance compared to the German interest in maintaining themselves in their eastern lands?

German eastern lands included the large Junker estates. Were Polish interest in their eradication misplaced?

The Treaty of Versailles went out of its way to draw boundaries that made the fewest members of one nationality citizens of another nation. Nevertheless, the boundaries left Germans and Hungarians in Czechoslovakia, Poles in Germany, Hungarians in Romania, and so on. It was the source of many fascist demands in the Inter-War period. Should the victors of WWII have given it another try nevertheless?

The Polish Jews who survived the Nazis did not want to go back to Poland in which their homes and families had been destroyed and which was wracked with anti-semitic riots after WWII. They were desparate to go to Palastine. Should they have been forced to go back to Poland nevertheless?

Did the settlements after WWII do perfect justice to each individual? No, of course not. But consider that after WWI, a second world war in Europe did not seem unthinkable. After the settlement of WWII, a third Europeon war seems pretty far fetched. After WWI, Germany was a feeble democracy, despised by many Germans on the right and the left. Today, Germany is a healthy democracy with strong popular support, and German militarism is dead. Today, Europeon integration is alive and well (if moving in fits and starts). After WWI, there was no Europeon integration to speak of. Europe is far, far better off today than it was after WWI. Perhaps if you had a magic wand and could change the post WWII settlement, you could have done a lot better. But don't be too sure. There's something to be said for a settlement that produced a Europe today that would have been as a far fetched utopian fantasy in 1936.

""...Germans viewed themselves as victims in 1945 without regard to the havoc they wrecked on....." The definition of "victim" may be helpful here: A VICTIM IS: 1)someone who is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent 2) someone who is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed 3) someone who is subjected to oppression, hardship, mistreatment, or torture." If for "SOMEONE" you put "persons", then ALL those persons are victims who are subjected to any of the above treatment, no matter what nationality they may have. Nor does it matter what the EXCUSES for such treatments are! The ONLY EXCEPTION LEGALLY RECOGNIZED IS THE ACTION ON THE BATTLEFIELD ITSELF: the actual engagement of ARMIES. It follows therefore, that,indeed, innumerable civilians were victims of Nazi Germany, and few, if any, Germans would deny this. Equally, millions of German civilians, in their homes, on the road, and on the flight, became VICTIMS of actions of revenge. No non-German should deny this either.

That's right, Der Germaine. I'm progressive and liberal and from New York. And I read a lot. Right now, I'm in the middle of Richard Bessel's Germany 1945 in which he notes that many Germans viewed themselves as victims in 1945 without regard to the havoc they wrecked on Europe during the preceding five years or so.

Perhaps that syndrome is familiar to you?

Sorry if you think that amounts to a lack of critical thinking, but I call it like I see it.

bronxite10--seemingly of New York-- is regurgitating U.S. Progressive talking points, and demonstrating that critical thinking is not allowed in Progressivism. No surprise, New York is terribly progressive. Despite the clever name, Progressives are not progressive at all. One must read as many history sources as possible to gain true perspective, not just that of "The Victors". Thinking is a free man's game, apparently not allowed in Progressivism, Marxism, Fascism, or Communism.

This site is much more interesting than watching U.S. Civil War re-enacters. The re-enacters live a few 150 year old battles whereas this site relives ethnic and political battles of a 1000 years.

The comments suffer from the basic historical fallacy of locating historical wrongs with governments and victimhood with individuals. It's never that simple. About 43% of Breslau voted in 1932 for Hitler and his policy of anti-semitisim and the need for Germans to expand eastward for "living space". It's hard to call them innocent in the loss of their homes. What they wished for others was done to them although the intensity of what was done to them never reached the gas chamber level. What about the many in the 57% who voted for Hindenberg but who later cheered the annexation of Austria and the Sudetenland? What of the ones who were ecstatic over the fall of France in 1940? Sure by June, 1945 they all wanted to forget their recent past like a bad dream and just move on with their lives as if nothing had happened, but that hardly made them blameless victims.

On the other hand, what of Breslau's Social Democrats who did not dare emerge until after Hitler was dead. Their fate was the same as those who trusted "Der Fuhrer" without reservation as late as January, 1945. And what about the 12 year old girl raped by a Soviet soldier as she cried for her mother. Don't think that that didn't happen as well.

There is some rough justice in German loss of their eastern, Junker-ridden, Prussian militarist producing lands. It's hard to blame the Czechs for driving out the Sudeten Germans or the Poles from annexing Silesia. The massive ethnic cleansing that accompanied the end of WWII produced many a horror story. But it was the facsist hypernationalism and racisim that made the polyglot populations of central Europe so unstable in the inter-war period, and Germany was in the forefront of that movement. History sweeps on making victims of guilty and innocent alike and sometimes benefiting those who don't deserve it at all. The purity of any national historical myth is usually based in a lot of denial and forgetting.

Rather than repeat national myths like fairy tails and defend their narratives when attacked, doesn't it make more sense to understand things as they were and use the lessons to make the world better?

Look at the way many Germans have drawn on the horrors of the German past to become liberal, broad minded and pacific. Many are what Beethoven could only dream of when he wrote the last movement of his 9th symphony. One wishes that many in the U.S. South could deal with their heritage of slavery and succession as honestly. They hide from the fact that Southern seccesion before the U.S. Civil War was based in the defense of a slave society. They equate their narcisstic view - the attitude is I can do anything I damn well please and I don't owe anything to anyone - with liberty, and they lie whenever it is convenient e.g. the South fought a just war for local control, Obama is a socialist, Obama's healthcare would give everyone poor care, there's no global warming, suspect most foreigners, and the only thing the central government is good for is the creation of a strong military. Anyone else see an echo of Euoropean fascist hyper-nationalism from the interwar period?

How about Hamas? Palastine was always Arab and Muslim. Jews have no place there. Palastine should be an Islamic state from the Jordan to the sea. It's a fine thing to kill Israeli civilians because they're Jews, their fathers were Jews and their grandfathers were Jews, and besides, there are no Israeli civilians. Suicide bombers are glorious and rockets fired against Sdorot are just fine. The fascist impulse is riding high and is Gaza's national policy.

What about the fringe settlers on the West Bank who don't see Palastinains with their own claims on the land and who write myophic religious commentaries about how they should exact a "price tag" from Palastinian civilians in response for the Israeli government's call for a freeze on settlement construction. Once again, the fascist impulse.

It's better to understand the past, although it can be difficult and quite unflattering, then to lap up the pap of sanitized historical myth. Only then can anyone ask the question of how to get a two state solution in the Middle East free of the fascist impulse whether it is in Hamas national policy or in the settler movement on the West Bank. Only then can you get national health care in the U.S. free of the fascist impulse of the old Confederacy of the South, and only then can anyone get a place in the chorus of the last movement of Beethoven's 9th.

""Maybe what happened in Wroclaw is a good thing in some way? The Germans were evicted so they all stayed together as Germans in their country.""
That is certainly a novel way of looking at it which would never have occurred to me.

You forgot to mention that in the 1400's Wroclaw was actually a part of Hungary as well. Under King Matthias Corvinus and was known as Boroszlo. Poles and Hungarians have always been good neighbors and friends though. Wroclaw is a beautiful city, have been many times and yes there are ghosts of the past but that's history. Hungary was also chopped up into 7 countries and a majority of their population given to foreign countries. Maybe what happened in Wroclaw is a good thing in some way? The Germans were evicted so they all stayed together as Germans in their country. In Hungary's case there are millions living outside their borders and being treated like crap by their new masters. I am sure that more than a few Germans managed to remain in Wroclaw, but the fact that these events are acknowledged means it will never be forgotten.

My mother was born in Breslau in 1936 and fled to the west when the Russians advandced. Like a lot of people from that region she and her family initialy fled to Dresden where she was caught in this major RAF bombardment where thousands of innocent civilian refugees lost their lives. The fact that the city of Dresden was full of refugees was well known before the RAF decided to attack.
Don't get me wrong, the nazi's were to be conquered because they were evil but this attack on Dresden was not needed considering the fact that the war was nearly finished. Luckilly my mom survived and married a dutch bloke after the war and presto: I'm here!!

"Weren't the British, USA and Soviet governments which took that decision and are responsible for that terrible injustice inflicted on 12 million innocent Germans?" Da! The Potsdam Treaty made it possible for the inappropriate land grabs. The USSR is most to blame for this. The execution, however, was carried out on the ground by Poles, Czechs, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians, Yugolsavs, etc. The post-war reactionary atrocities against the non-military German population were just as wrong as the war-time atrocities committed by the Axis powers against the Eastern European populations. Polish and Czech/ Slovak war crimes are just coming to light after 65 years. The Soviet Union falsely educated their populations. Now, with relative freedom, these countries are able to research works outside of Soviet influence. It must be difficult for those countries to learn of, and admit, their complicity.

What are you trying to say Theodore? That we need another war to give Germans their lost land? Which was actually grabbed by them from Poles and other Western Slavs on some point... Weren't the British, USA and Soviet governments which took that decision and are responsible for that terrible injustice inflicted on 12 million innocent Germans?
You are not British are you? German you are, aren't you? You can stop dreaming about your lost realms from now on, matey...

""http://healthandenergy.com - "Deadly Diesel Fumes" Published Feb. 24, 2005
"The deadly effects of breathing diesel fumes came into sharp focus this week when the Clean Air Task Force (CATF) released a report[1] estimating that diesel fumes kill about 21,000 U.S. citizens each year."" A mere myth, Mr. Brown??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:West_slavs_9th-10th_c..png this map show everything about slavic settlement and mixed population slavs-germans in this area. Germans have many polish blood it is true that germans owned slavs and also got their genes

ref Dita 'diesel engine exhausts'
diesel engine exhaust ARE NOT POISONOUS. they stink and are unpleasant but cannot kill you. You are repeating a bogus claim you have heard somewhere else!

my ancient greek ancestors as in almost everything else were spot on.to the victor the spoils...and history is written by the victors....and woe to the vanquised...
the bottom line is that what now is called western poland is german lands as
they have been for over 1000 years.the
original german population has been ethnically cleansed,raped and robbed from
their land,homes,cities and villages even
their cemeteries have been wiped out.
so spare us the pathetic excuses and justifications for legalising one of the
biggest crimes in european history against over 12.000.000 people.there is
no excuse or justification.Breslau will
always be breslau NOT wroclaw,so will Danzig..Stettin..Posen..Konigsberg..
Allenstein etc...etc...

""Let's forget.." NO! But it must also be remembered that the German people were the first victims of the Nazi regime as follows: ""After the 1932 election, it became clear to the Nazi leadership that they would never be able to secure a majority of votes and that they would have to rely on other means to gain power. In addition to an increased use of violence, aimed at disrupting and intimidating their opponents, the Nazis set up concentration centres, where the regime used to lock up the "undesirable elements" of society, and the elderly, mentally ill, and handicapped were often confined in makeshift camps where they were starved or gassed to death with diesel engine exhaust. The Final Solution was therefore initially tested on German citizens...."" Nor must it be forgotten that tens of thousands of those murdered and now collectively referred to as "Jews" were German,too. Atrocities on all sides must be remembered if the Nazi spirit is to be extinguished once for all.

Countries that have suffered under the Nazi Jackboot: Lets just all forget about the unfortunate incidents such as Auschwitz, Dachau etc, lets just forget about the systematic annihilation of Warsaw, lets just forget about the SS Einsatzgruppen in Russia with continual massacre of non-combatants, lets just forget about 1.5 million Poles and 6 million Jews eliminated in death camps, lets just forget about the systematic annihilation of all peoples not fitting into the Nazi Aryan ideal, we can just kiss and make up!!!!!!!! xxxxxx

"Two wrongs don't make a right"...it is a logical fallacy that has been used by nearly everyone in attempt to clear people conscious about the killing of INNOCENT German civilians in Schlesien and elsewhere in German Prussia. What a pitifully, sad low-brow argument to justify revenge-murder on inculpable non-combatants. The height of grenzenlose Dummheit.

heil the german empire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My Jewish uncle who fled to Britain before the war and lost his mother on the way to Auschwitz used to say: "The perpetrator of atrocities has no excuse. No, not even the excuse of taking revenge" - That settles it.

The injustice the Germans of Wroclaw experienced is a consequence of the Nazi invasion of Poland and the Germans losing the second world war. There suffering is a mere pin prick compared to the systematic destruction of Poland dealt out by the Nazis, who were hell bent in not just invading and occupying Poland, but eliminating it from existence by the targeting of its intelligentsia.

Furthermore, with the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, they were complicit with the Soviet Union in the attempted obliteration of Poland from existence. By losing the war, they reaped what they sowed, and Poland lives on!

This article tries to highlight and emphasize the wrongs done to the Germans, but ignores the much greater and numerous wrongs they committed.

The real villains in this border playing of Europe are Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, not Poland.

The previous primitive contribution seems to have shocked everybody into silence. What a shame. Can such offensive nonsense not be erased?

breslau is only good for nazi zombies der rise haha

Der Germane, can't thank you enough for your information !!!!! My father has no records, he escaped in 1939....still this is a wonderful start to my quest...

Mindy:

Here is a Jewish website that may provide some clues.
http://www.jewish-guide.pl/sites/31 and
here too: http://jewishgen.blogspot.com/2009/08/poland-marks-65th-lodz-ghetto.html

Łódź in German is Lodz or Lodsch. Between 1940–1945 it was called Litzmannstadt. As for Breslau, this website has some good info. Also here:http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~polwgw/polandgen.html Perhaps you father has records. If he was in the Army, for those born before 1890 are stored at
Bundesarchiv - Milit"ararchiv
Wiesentalstrasse 10
79115 Freiburg/Breisgau



Read more: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/genealogy/german-faq/part3/section-1.html#ixzz0SYM7srKC
Viel Glück!

deseperating seeking information pertaining to my fathers family who lived in Breslau till 1939. German Jews in the linen business. I was told my grandfather was in the German Army pre Hitler. If there is anyone who can help reference me to search my familys past please leet me know. My father now has alzhemiers, and would never talk about it when he could. Nor would my Mom who left Poland in 1921, though many of her family didn't and were also killed. They were from Ludz. Any information for this soul searcher would be wonderful and I thank you in advance.

The truth is that the Soviets should not have been allowed to play with the borders of eastern Europe. The border changes imposed on the defeated Germany, and the consequent expulsions of populations, should be considered a crime against humanity. Some 2 million people died in the expulsions, which were carried out in the most brutal way possible. A disgrace and an example of vicious revenge once a war had already ended.