Breslau | Wroclaw

Breslau

Probably if you’ve been in town long enough you've heard the name Breslau mentioned and wondered what the hell he, she or it is…? Ask any Germans however and they will be less puzzled, as Breslau was, until quite recently, one of the foremost cities in Prussia, the powerful Germanic state that bossed Europe until the end of the Second World War. And whereas today the majority of Europeans are happy to use the Polish name of Wroclaw, there are many west of the German-Polish border who still refer to this Silesian town by the pre-war title of Breslau.

Perhaps this is unsurprising if you consider that, whereas Wroclaw was governed first by the Polish Piast kings in the 10th century, from the 13th century onwards the city was populated predominantly by Germans. It was German settlers at this time that helped to rebuild the city after it had been sacked by the Mongols and to turn it into a thriving commercial centre. In the centuries that followed Wroclaw prospered under both the Bohemians and the Austrians, before, in 1741, Frederick the Great II took hold of the city and officially changed the its name to Breslau (the Germanic name however had been in use long before that). The next 200 years saw the city increasingly Germanised, although it was only in the years directly following the Nazis seizure of power in 1933 that this was done with aggressive intent. By 1938 the entire Polish community had been forced out of the city, along with two thirds of the Jews.

The city gained a new and bloody chapter in its turbulent history during the events of World War II, when Breslau became the last stronghold of the Third Reich in the struggle against the Soviet forces. Dubbed 'Festung Breslau' ('Breslau Fortress') by Hitler it was the scene of a brutal siege lasting 14 weeks and that cost the lives of 170,000 civilians, 6,000 German troops and 7,000 Russian troops. Finally the city capitulated (the last to do so, four days after Berlin) on May 6th 1945 in a state of absolute ruin. An estimated 70% of the city was destroyed. Those German civilians that hadn’t been killed or evacuated were left at the mercy of the Red Army, for whom 'liberating' the city went hand-in-hand with drunken marauding, rape and pillage.

In the aftermath of the World War II, Stalin (who held the trump cards in the post-war negotiations) effectively shifted the whole of Poland west so as to include formerly Polish cities like Wilno (now Vilnius) and Lwow into the Soviet Union - granting Poland formerly German cities like Breslau as means of recompense. As a result the remainder of the German population of Breslau was evicted and forced to relocate within Germany's newly drawn frontiers. In their place arrived thousands of Poles from what is now the Ukrainian town of Lviv (which was previously the Polish town of Lwow). Naturally Breslau was given back its Polish name, Wroclaw.

Confused? Well so were the new settlers. Forcibly uprooted from their own town of Lwow, the shell-shocked Poles found themselves in a ruined German city, that they were now being told to call home sweet home. No wonder they didn't take to it straight away – not only did the German signs, road names, monuments and inscriptions evoke painful memories of their times under Nazi occupation, but the private possessions left behind in the houses were a constant reminder of the fact that they were living in a city that had been ‘stolen’ from another people.

In the years that followed Wroclaw underwent major surgery – both physical and mental. Great effort was made to propagate the myth of Wroclaw as a Polish city that has at last been returned from the hands of the dastardly Nazis to its rightful owners (a far from complete picture of the town’s mixed heritage and colourful history). Much money was invested too, firstly in 'de-Germanising' the city with the removal of all German writings and inscriptions, and secondly in the restoration of the splendid 13th century buildings destroyed in the war, so that the bruised and battered city could hold its head high once more and embrace the future as a beautifully-restored Polish town.

However, underneath today's smiling and dynamic city lurk the shadows of history’s wrongs. Questions raised about the unfair treatment of German civilians by the Polish after the war have undermined the moral high ground that many Poles like to take about their role in history and their perception of themselves as perpetual victims of foreign aggression. Perhaps that is why these days the Wroclawians genially welcome back the Germans as tourists looking to trace their former homes or those of their forefathers. They keep their consciences clean with the argument that whereas wrongs were done to many innocent Germans, much worse was done by the Germans to the Poles; and they remind themselves that they too were forcibly and unwillingly uprooted from their homes in Lwow, and by this reasoning they hope both to find empathy from their evicted counterparts, and more importantly to justify their abduction of the city. This last idea is something of a romanticised truth however – part of the Polish government's post-war propaganda was designed to assuage Polish guilt about the tenure of their new property. Only about 20% of the post-war population of Wroclaw arrived from Lwow and the surrounding area of the Kresy, with many more settlers in fact coming from Warsaw and Poznan.

Despite all the complications of its contentious past, or perhaps because of them, Wroclaw is a relaxed and forward-looking city that is keen to brush the cobwebs of history under the carpet. And let's face it, no one is keener to join them than the Germans, who more than any nation would like to encourage a 'forgive and forget' policy towards the events of the 20th century. This mutual acceptance of guilt serves the city of Wroclaw well. The Poles don't bring up the Germans' atrocities during the War, and in return the Germans don't ask for their city back. But whereas both parties would openly agree that they must be prepared to move on, the reality is less clearly defined. The fact is that you can forgive, but you can never forget – which is why Wroclaw today is full of German tourists hoping to find some small trace of the Breslau that they left behind.

If you are one of our German readers then you may find the following link useful for tracing Breslau's and her peoples' history: www.Breslau-Wroclaw.de

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""To the German morons who claimed that the Teutonic Knights had a glorious past, just look at how the Poles easily defeated them at Grunwald. Learn humility!!!" What's with the attack on Germans? Your opinion is immediately discredited with ignorant bias like that. The Battle of Gunwald/ Tannenberg was NOT a struggle between Germans and Slavs as is inappropriately promoted through propaganda on both sides! It was the Teutonic State (Ordensstaat) vs. the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. State vs. State. Realize the Teutonic Order corrupted its original mission in Europe, when Lithuania finally accepted Christianity. The Order has a very turbulent, and not so glorious, history after 1198. The Order had considerable holdings in Germany and elsewhere. The Order had an agenda independent of the German Empire. Formally an institution of the Hospitallers, the pope commanded that the prior and the brothers of the domus Theutonicorum (house of the Germans) should always be Germans themselves, so a tradition of a German-led religious institution developed. "Based on the model of the Knights Templar it was, however, transformed into a military order in 1198 and the head of the order became known as the Grand Master (magister hospitalis). It received Papal orders for crusades to take and hold Jerusalem for Latin Christianity and defend the Holy Land against the Muslim Saracens. During the rule of Grand Master Hermann von Salza (1209-1239) the Order changed from being a hospice brotherhood for pilgrims to primarily a military order. The German historian Heinrich von Treitschke used imagery of the Teutonic Knights to promote pro-German and anti-Polish rhetoric. Such imagery and symbols were adopted by many middle-class Germans who supported German nationalism. The converse was also true for Polish nationalism, which used the Teutonic Knights as a symbolic short-hand for Germans in general, conflating the two into an easily recognizable image of the hostile 'Other.' Even today, the Teutonic Knights and the Battle of Grunwald are often invoked by the media in Poland and also by society in general when engaged in antagonistic relations with Germans or the Federal Republic of Germany. However, in spite of these references to the Teutonic Order's history in the propaganda, the Order itself was abolished in 1938 and its members were persecuted by the Nazi regime." source-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights. Anyway, the Poles and Lithuanians failed to take Marienburg despite the Commonwealth's victory. Moreover, Polish, Lithuanians, Saracens, some Czech's, Ruthenians, and many others were part of the Polish/ Lithuanian army. Poland did NOT defeat the Teutonic Order all by themselves as was suggested. Many factors came in to play in the defeat of the Teutonic Order that day. To get a proper, perspective, read sources from Germany, Poland, and Lithuania. That is the only way to find a truthful balance about this historic battle. Don't fall in to the biased propaganda trap. It swindles people to accept half-lies as whole truths."

Heinrich von Plötzke
Poland
May.21.2009
rates this page 3/5


"Guglielmo Alberto Wladimiro Alessandro Apollinare de Kostrowitzky: According to his baptism certificate, he was baptized Guglielmus Apollinaris Albertus Kostrowitzky in Rome. He is considered a French poet, and was naturalized c.1916 in France. He was of Swiss, Italian, Polish ancestry."	Italy May.15.2009 rates this page 3/5


"von Tyrpic- Toll! Actually, (von, ab 1900)Tirpitz is appropriate. In reference to Alfred von Tirpitz, he was of German, French, and Polish ancestry. Book source: "Tirpitz: sein Leben und Wirken mit Berücksichtigung seiner Beziehungen zu Albrecht Stosch" by Ulrich von Hassell (1920, German). Interesting read about a dynamic Naval military pioneer."	Der Germane United States May.12.2009 rates this page 3/5


"I like germans especialy those with slavic (polish) orgin all around the world Cheers to all"	von Tyrpic Antigua & Barbuda May.10.2009 rates this page 3/5

""Great Slav Warrior" stop writing rubbish and read History propely. The Poles on their own did not defeat the Teutonic Kinghts. They defeat the Teutonic Kinights with the help of the Lithuanians only. The force that defeat the Teutonic Kinght at the battle of Tannenberg was a combined Polish-Lithuanian army. Many years after, the Teutonic Knight declined not because of the Poles but because of infighting with the Order of the Teutonic Knight. Please read below: Decline In 1410 at the First Battle of Tannenberg — known in Polish as the Battle of Grunwald and in Lithuanian as the Battle of Žalgiris — a combined Polish-Lithuanian army, led by W³adys³aw II Jagie³³o and Vytautas, decisively defeated the Order in the Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic War. Grand Master Ulrich von Jungingen and most of the Order's higher dignitaries fell on the battlefield (50 out of 60). The Polish-Lithuanian army then besieged the capital of the Order, Marienburg, but was unable to take it owing to the resistance of Heinrich von Plauen. When the First Peace of Thorn was signed in 1411, the Order managed to retain essentially all of its territories, although the Knights' reputation as invincible warriors was irreparably damaged. While Poland and Lithuania were growing in power, that of the Teutonic Knights dwindled through infighting. They were forced to impose high taxes in order to pay a substantial indemnity but did not give the cities sufficient requested representation in the administration of their state. The authoritarian and reforming Grand Master Heinrich von Plauen was forced from power and replaced by Michael Küchmeister von Sternberg, but the new Grand Master was unable to revive the Order's fortunes. After the Gollub War the Knights lost some small border regions and renounced all claims to Samogitia in the 1422 Treaty of Melno. Austrian and Bavarian knights feuded with those from the Rhineland, who likewise bickered with Low German-speaking Saxons, from whose ranks the Grand Master was usually chosen. The western Prussian lands of the Vistula River Valley and the Brandenburg Neumark were ravaged by the Hussites during the Hussite Wars.[17] Some Teutonic Knights were sent to battle the invaders, but were defeated by the Bohemian infantry. The Knights also sustained a defeat in the Polish-Teutonic War (1431-1435). In 1454 the Prussian Confederation, consisting of the gentry and burghers of western Prussia, rose up against the Order, beginning the Thirteen Years' War. Much of Prussia was devastated in the war, during the course of which the Order returned Neumark to Brandenburg in 1455. In the Second Peace of Thorn (1466), the defeated Order recognized the Polish crown's rights over western Prussia (subsequently Royal Prussia) while retaining eastern Prussia under nominal Polish overlordship. Because Marienburg Castle was handed over to mercenaries in lie of their pay, the Order moved its base to Königsberg in Sambia. The Order was completely ousted from Prussia when Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg, after another unsuccessful war with Poland, converted to Lutheranism in 1525, secularized the Order's remaining Prussian territories, and assumed from King Sigismund I the Old of Poland, his uncle, the hereditary rights to the Duchy of Prussia as a vassal of the Polish Crown in the Prussian Homage. The Protestant Duchy of Prussia was thus a fief of Catholic Poland. Castle of the Teutonic Order in Bad Mergentheim.Although it had lost control of all of its Prussian lands, the Teutonic Order retained its territories within the Holy Roman Empire and Livonia, although the Livonian branch retained considerable autonomy. Many of the Imperial possessions were ruined in the Peasants' War from 1524-1525 and subsequently confiscated by Protestant territorial princes.[18] The Livonian territory was then partitioned by neighboring powers during the Livonian War; in 1561 the Livonian Master Gotthard Kettler secularized the southern Livonian possessions of the Order to create the Duchy of Courland, also a vassal of Poland. After the loss of Prussia in 1525, the Teutonic Knights concentrated on their possessions in the Holy Roman Empire. Since they held no contiguous territory, they developed a three-tiered administrative system: holdings were combined into commanderies which were administered by a commander (Komtur). Several commanderies were combined to form a bailiwick headed by a Landkomtur. All of the Teutonic Knights' possessions were subordinate to the Grand Master whose seat was in Bad Mergentheim. Altogether there were twelve German bailiwicks: Thuringia, Alden Biesen (in present-day Belgium), Hesse, Saxony, Westphalia, Franconia, Koblenz, Alsace-Burgundy, An der Etsch und im Gebirge (Tyrol), Utrecht, Lorraine, and Austria. Outside of German areas were the bailiwicks of Sicily, Apulia, Lombardy, Bohemia, "Romania" (Greece), and Armenia-Cyprus. The Order gradually lost control of these holdings until, by 1810, only the bailiwicks in Tyrol and Austria remained. Following the abdication of Albert of Brandenburg, Walter von Cronberg became Deutschmeister in 1527, became Administrator of Prussia and Grand Master in 1530. Emperor Charles V combined the two positions in 1531, creating the title Hoch- und Deutschmeister, which also had the rank of Prince of the Empire.[19] A new Grand Magistery was established in Mergentheim in Württemberg, which was attacked during the Peasants' War. The Order also helped Charles V against the Schmalkaldic League. After the Peace of Augsburg in 1555, membership in the Order was open to Protestants, although the majority of brothers remained Catholic.[20] The Teutonic Knights now were tri-denominational, and there were Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed bailiwicks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Knights "

Teutonic Knight
Liechtenstein
May.08.2009
rates this page 3/5


"CORRECTION-"And, it certainly DID NOT diminish the political and military accomplishments of the order.""	United States May.04.2009 rates this page 3/5


"Meant to say "definitely wasn't easy!""	United States May.04.2009 rates this page 3/5

""Great Slav Warrior": The Poles did the ultimately win, but it was definitely easily! They didn't even do it by themselves. There were a few key moments that shifted the outcome in their favor. It can happen in any battle. It was a battle won, but it did not win the war. It only paused the Eastward expansion briefly. And, it certainly diminish political and military accomplishments of the order. Give credit where it is do, but no more."

United States
May.04.2009
rates this page 3/5


"To the German morons who claimed that the Teutonic Knights had a glorious past, just look at how the Poles easily defeated them at Grunwald. Learn humility!!!"	Great Slav Warrior United States May.02.2009 rates this page 3/5


"British withdrawal from Europe? Good move. Then England should regain it's sovereignty. Scotland, Ireland, and Wales want their own thing anyway."	Jutland1 United States May.01.2009 rates this page 3/5

"United Europe?! Hardly...what a fantastic statement! Moving freely from country to country via a 'Personalausweis' does not constituTe unity. True unity has to have it's genesis from the will of the people, not Brussels Elitist Eurocrats. Lemberg (L'viv, Lwów)sure is nice, but was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire from 1772- c.1918.Although, Germans had been influencing that area since about 1356. Lemberg was the capital of the Austrian Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria. After 1918, it ws a tug of war between the Soviet Union and Poland, not Prussia or the German Empire."

Günther
Austria
May.01.2009
rates this page 3/5


"Wroclaw is mere trinket for what was lost. Lwow (Lemsburg) war ganz viele schoener. We live in a united Europe, let's start behaving as such. "	Rynecki United States Apr.24.2009 rates this page 3/5

"Having visited Silesia several times (and Breslau/Wroclav twice) I was attracted to the sight. Some of it good, some of it less good - so it goes. However, I was shockened and saddened by the raving racism on both sides of the 'discussion' that followed therefrom. Have we learned nothing from the bloodletting of the last 100 years. Your correspondents give the greatest arguement for a British withdrawal from Europe. Who wants to associate with lunatics such as these?"

JohnW
United Kingdom
Apr.07.2009
rates this page 3/5

"Kopernikus war nicht der polnischen Herkunft. Mindestens nicht 100 %. Und, sicher nicht von einer kulturellen Einstellung. Kopernikus war in Königlich-Preußen geboren. Königlich-Preußen hatte wesentliche Autonomie in seiner Verbindung zur Krone Polens. Der Stanford Encycolpedia von Philosophie schreibt es am besten: 'So war das Kind einer deutschen Familie ein Untertan der polnischen Krone.'All seine Publikationen, Briefe usw. sind in deutscher oder lateinischer Sprache. Er war Preußischer Mathematiker aus Thorn."

Günther
Austria
Apr.06.2009
rates this page 3/5

"Persecution of ethnic Poles (to 1918) Anti-Polish rhetoric combined with the condemnation of Polish culture was most prominent in the 18th century Prussia during the partitions of Poland. For instance Johann Georg Forster in his letters dismissed the idea that the Poles were a part of European culture, comparing them to primitive tribes and portraying Poland as an underdeveloped, uncivilized land awaiting the importation of Kultur from "truly civilized countries". Such views were later repeated in the German ideas of Lebensraum and exploited by the Nazis. German academics in the 18th – 20th century attempted to project, in the difference between Germany and Poland, a boundary between civilization and barbarism; high German Kultur, and "primitive Slavdom". Prussian officials encouraged the view that the Poles were culturally inferior and in need of Prussian tutelage. Not surprisingly, such racist texts published from the 18th century on were republished by the German Reich prior to and after its Invasion of Poland. Frederick the Great nourished a particular hatred and contempt for Polish people. He spoke of the Poles as "slovenly Polish trash", "the Iroquois of Europe" and "a barbarous people sunk in ignorance and stupidity". His all-encompassing anti-Polish campaign was exemplified in that even the nobility of Polish background living in Prussia were obliged to pay higher taxes than that of German heritage. Polish monasteries were viewed as "lairs of idleness" and their property often seized by Prussian authorities. The prevalent Catholicism among Poles was stigmatized. The Polish language was persecuted on all levels. When Poland lost the last vestiges of its independence in 1795 and remained partitioned for 123 years, ethnic Poles were subjected to discrimination on two separate fronts: the Germanization under Prussian and later German rule, and Russification in the territories annexed by the Imperial Russia. In Russia, being a Polish person was in itself almost culpable. "Practically all of the Russian government, bureaucracy, and society were united in one outburst against the Poles... Rumor mongers informed the population about an order that had supposedly been given to kill... and take away their land." Polish culture and religion were seen as threats to Russian imperial ambitions. Tsarist Namestniks suppressed them on Polish lands by force.[3] Their anti-Polish campaign, which included confiscation of Polish nobles' property,[15] was being waged in the arenas of education, religion as well as language.[3] Polish schools and universities were being closed in a stepped up campaign of russification. In addition to executions and mass deportations of Poles to Katorga camps, Tsar Nicholas I established an occupation army at Poland's expense.[7] At the same time, with the emergence of Panslavist ideology, Russian writers accused the Polish nation of betraying their "Slavic family", because of their armed efforts aimed at regaining independence.[16] Hostility toward Poles was present in many of Russia's literary works and media of the time.[17] The fact that Poles were overwhelmingly of Catholic (and not Orthodox) faith, likewise gave impetus to religious persecution. In Prussia, and later in Germany, Poles were forbidden to build homes, and their properties were targeted for forced buy-outs financed by the Prussian and German governments. Otto von Bismarck described Poles, as animals (wolves), that "one shoots if one can" and implemented several harsh laws aiming at their expulsion from traditionally Polish lands. The Polish language was banned from public, and ethnically Polish children tortured at schools,[19] just for speaking Polish (see: Wrzeœnia). Poles were subjected to a wave of forceful evictions (Rugi Pruskie). German government financed and encouraged settlement of ethnic Germans into those areas aiming at their geopolitical germanisation. The Prussian Landtag passed laws against Catholics. During World War I, Imperial Germany made plans to take control over the territories of Congress Poland and impose a population transfer of Polish and Jewish people followed by a new wave of settlement by ethnic Germans "

Bismarck
Switzerland
Apr.06.2009
rates this page 5/5

"I very sorry to disappoint you but I am German. My father is German and my mother is Swiss-German. If you like it or not we Germans always had a comtempt for Slavs. If you move back to the Teutonic Knights during the Middle-Age. Even in the 18th Century, Frederick II after conquering West-Prussia did not have time for the Poles. Bismarck did not have any respect for Poles. What to say about kaizer Wilhelm he did not think much of Polish people. Germans and Poles deep below the surface we do not like each other. "

United States
Apr.06.2009
rates this page 3/5

"Presumably, this ignorant "Bismarck" can read German. Although I hope!! he is not himself German. Martin Kreim in his "Geschichte von Polen" states as follows: ""Als größte polnische Gelehrte nach Kopernikus erhielt Marie Curie-Sklodowska (die in Paris tätig war), zweimal den Nobelpreis. Großen Anteil hatten die Polen als Erbauer von Eisenbahnlinien und Brücken in den Ländern Nord- und Südamerikas. Eine technische Spitzenleistung von Kazimierz Gzowski war die Konstruktion der International Bridge in Kanada, einer Brücke über den Niagara, die Kanada mit den Vereinigten Staaten verband. Im Bereich der Literatur zogen berühmte Persönlichkeiten die Aufmerksamkeit auf sich: Adam Mickiewic, in Frankreich besonders Wilhelm Apolinary Kostrowicki, mehr als Guillaume Apollinaire bekannt, und in England Joseph Konrad (Jozef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski). Als Meister des historischen Berichts wurde Henryk Sienkiewicz bekannt, der für seinen Roman "Quo vadis?" 1905 den Nobelpreis für Literatur erhielt. Anfang des 20. Jhd. wurde der Virtuose (Pianist) und Komponist Ignacy Paderewski zum berühmtesten Polen der Welt. Das größte Gut aber hinterließ seinem Volk und der Welt Frederyk Chopin mit seinen Werken."" As a native Breslauer with my own painful past I do, nevertheless, resent stupid contributions like that of this "bismarck". What did the Great Man himself say? ""Be polite; write diplomatically; even in a declaration of war one observes the rules of politeness."" "

United States
Mar.25.2009
rates this page 3/5


"Puppet Master is the typical ignorant Pole. The Greatest German Chancellor of all times Otto von Bismarck was right about Polish People, please read the weblink below: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/707_Bismarck%20on%20Polish%20Question_212.pdf"	Bismarck Switzerland Mar.24.2009 rates this page 3/5

"What Puppet Master is condescendingly saying is that it's the spoils of war. Germany couldn't defend the territory, so it was taken. This is an over simplification, and inaccurate. Russia did not take anything from Germany. It was the COMBINED strength of the U.K., France, USSR (as of 22 jun 1941), Poland, Austalia, Canada, and 52 other nations plus Hitler's delusions and poor decision making in the latter half of WWII that created the outcome of the war. Eastern Prussia was exchanged for territories that Stalin wanted from Poland's eastern borders. It was to pacify Poland. The USSR was part of "The Big Three" and carried a lot of weight regarding Two Plus Four Agreement. It only happened so that Russia could justify a 'land grab' on Polish property that had lusted after for a long time. "

Der Germane
United States
Mar.01.2009
rates this page 3/5


"Haven't got a clue what Puppet-Master is saying"	United Kingdom Feb.23.2009 rates this page 3/5


"this city was taken by germany then when the russians took it bake they gave it to poland. botom line is that he who can take the most gets it. but he who cannot defend what he has taken had no buiness with it in the first place "	Puppet-Master United States Feb.23.2009 rates this page 4/5


"Bismarck?? You have chosen the wrong name. The Iron Chancellor is quoted as saying: "A really great man is known by three signs... generosity in the design, humanity in the execution, moderation in success." Give it a try!!! "	Emmet United Kingdom Feb.18.2009 rates this page 3/5


"Lieber Bismarck: Deutsche waren Barbaren. Die Slawen waren Bauern. Sie hatten eine entwickelte Zivilisation, bevor sie sich mit deutschen Stämmen trafen. Ich schätze deutschen Nationalismus, aber machen Sie bitte genaue Anmerkungen. Danke!"	Der Germane United States Feb.18.2009 rates this page 3/5


"German Breslau !!!! German Silesia !!! Long Live the Teutonic Knight !!!! The Germans brought civilisation to the barbarian slavs."	Bismarck Germany Feb.18.2009 rates this page 3/5


"Toronto, your reference to "S£OWIAÑSZCZYZNA WEST GERMANIA, and marked by red dots" stems from a publication dated "Warszawa 1918" when Poland attempted its own "land grab" westward at the end of WW1. Not a convincing argument! "	Lerge United Kingdom Feb.12.2009 rates this page 3/5

""...even Queen Elizabeth II mentioned something about Polish blood in her veins." So what? The original Piast Dynasty and Jagielonian Kings up to Sygmunt I are related. The British Royal family is mainly composed of German stock. Although, because of Royal marriage practices, Queen Elizabeth II has many relations of different cultural backgrounds. See here: www.monarchist.ca/redbox/ourmulticulturalmonarchy.doc It doesn't make here Polish, though, and it is a real tentaive argument to say that she has "Polish blood in her veins". Reaching...sad."

United States
Feb.12.2009
rates this page 3/5

"A quote from Tacitus seems to be fitting here: "It is the rare fortune of these days that a man may think what he likes and say what he thinks". Maps of GERMANIA as per Tacitus can be found on the following links: www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/germany/map.htm AND www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/german_migrations_150_1066.jpg. Sorry, I can't see Slavs or Poles amongst the tribes listed in the whole of central Europe at that time. "

Emmet
United Kingdom
Feb.11.2009
rates this page 2/5

""Viking leader was actually from northern part of Poland - south shore of Baltic Sea, who first discovered America in 10-th century, before Cristobar Colon vel Columbus did at the end of 15-th century - 500 years earlier !" Actually, this is very wrong. Naddoður, great great grand Uncle of Leifr Eiríksson, and brother of Þorvaldr Ásvaldsson, and son of Ásvald Úlfsson, and Grandson of Úlf Øxna-Þórir, was not born in Poland. He was born in Agder, Southern Norway-which is not even close to Poland- along with his family. He was a Norwegian and maybe part of the Egðir. Naddoður was one of the first settlers of the Faroe Islands (c.850 A.D.) and probably the first Nordic man to set foot on North America (Greenland). He also is the founder of Iceland. Leifr Eiríksson (970-1020) was born in Iceland. His parents, Þorvaldr Ásvaldsson and Þjóðhildr, were from Norway. They were Scandinavian, not Slavic or Polish. He was probably the first European to land in North America (excluding Greenland). According to the Sagas of Icelanders, he established a Norse settlement at Vinland around 1000 A.D., which has been tentatively identified with the L'Anse aux Meadows Norse site on the northern tip of the island of Newfoundland in Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada. Gunnbjörn Ulfsson was the first European to see the North American continent, c.876 to 932, although he did not land. "

United States
Feb.09.2009
rates this page 3/5

""Wroclaw was always Polish and Slavic tribes lived there pass a Berlin since 3000 years ago. This stuff is mentioned by Roman historian Tacyt" Incorrect...The Silingii were an East Germanic tribe, probably part of the larger Vandal group. According to most scholars, the Silingi lived in Silesia , the term "Silesia" itself perhaps being derived from "Silingi" - the nearby river was named Silingula after the Silingi. The river's name was borrowed by Slavs after their invasion in the 6th century A.D. as Sьlęža or Sьlędza>Sьlęza (from Silingja or Silinga ) - today Ślęza. The Slavic tribe that lived near the Sьlędza (or Sьlęža) river was named Sьlędz-jane which later evolved into Sьlęžane, then the Modern Polish Ślężanie.The city of Wrocław itself originated in Lower Silesia as a Bohemian stronghold. Tacitus identified Germanic tribes in the the area of SIlesia, not Slavs."

United States
Feb.08.2009
rates this page 3/5

"In 98 AD, Tacitus described the territory of Germania. What is now Berlin, in ancient times was well outside the frontiers of the Roman Empire. Germanic tribes then inhabited the region. During the post-Roman Migration Period, they departed for other lands, probably to become part of the new ruling class in the invaded areas of the western Roman Empire. In 6th century onwards, Slavic peoples from the east start moving into the sparsely populated area between the Elbe and Oder rivers. In about 720, two Slavic tribes settled in the Berlin region. Poles have a lot to be proud of. One doesn't have to make stuff up."

John
United States
Feb.08.2009
rates this page 3/5

"Im 3. Jahrtausend v. Chr. bildeten sich Kulturen mit Ackerbau und Viehzucht, die handgefertigte Keramiken und Vorratsspeicher benutzten. Seit dem 6. Jahrhundert v. Chr. siedelten sich verstärkt Germanen an: in historischen Quellen tauchten für sie die Stammesbezeichnungen Semnonen (Teilstamm der Sweben) und Burgunden auf. Ungefähr 720: Zwei Slawische Stämme richteten sich im Berliner Gebiet ein. 98 n.Chr.: Tacitus beschrieb das Territorium von Germania. Was jetzt Berlin ist, in alten Zeiten war gut außerhalb der Grenzen des römischen Reiches. Germanische Stämme bewohnten dann das Gebiet. Während der poströmischen Wanderungsperiode gingen sie nach anderen Ländern fort, wahrscheinlich ein Teil der neuen herrschenden Klasse in den angegriffenen Gebieten des römischen Westreiches zu werden."

Gunther
Austria
Feb.08.2009
rates this page 3/5

"Toronto, jesteś nieporozumień informacji. R1A nie jest słowiańskie wskaźnika. Wszelkie szczególności R1A sekwencji może lub nie może być pochodzenia słowiańskiego. Słowiańskie ludzie są identyfikowane poprzez posiadanie konkretnego chromosomu Y haplo grupy R1A lub HG3 lub Eu19. R1A nie pochodzą z słowiańskich ludzi (dlatego nie jest słowiańskie markera). Jego początki w Europie Wschodniej refugium po Ostatnia lodowaty Maksymalna Oznacza to, że miał dużo czasu, aby się na całym kontynencie, nawet w miejscach, gdzie ludzie nigdy nie były słowiańskie obecnej. Na przykład, okaże się w holenderskim osób przy częstotliwości 3,7%, a ludność, która w dużej mierze niezmienione w jakikolwiek atak słowiańskich. Niektóre geneticists nawet powiedział R1A jest jedynym prawdziwym Viking haplo grupy. Niektóre nowsze badania wskazują, że R1A linii może mieć źródło w Północnej Indii. Norweski najeźdźcy silnie wpłynęło na północnej części Wysp Brytyjskich. Jest bardzo ważne, aby pamiętać, że członkostwo w szczególności haplogroup nie samodzielnie wskazać grupy etnicznej, z której wywodzi się męskiej linii. Thor Heyerdahl, z Kon Tiki sławę, spędziła pozostałe lata swego życia próbuje to udowodnić teoretycznie - dowodów i DNA jest zbyt udowodnić mu prawo. Szwedzi od dawna uważała, że legenda, oraz pojawienie się określonego typu skandynawskiego R1A z Azji Środkowej motywem wydaje się wsparcie tego konta. R1a1 oznacza, że może być kilka połączeń genetycznej, ale jest niepoprawna, że Skandynawowie mają słowiańskich genów. Kolejne fale azjatyckie hordy (Scythians, Huns i Mongols) najeżdżających Europy w różnych porach jest możliwe źródła Viking R1a1, nie plemiona słowiańskie. W Skandynawii, szacuje się, przez niektórych badaczy, że około 40% z R1A, a wszystkie z P i K można przypisać do Alani - Hun migracji we wczesnych 400S BC. R1a1 nie musi oznaczać słowiańskiego dziedzictwa. "

Thor
Iceland
Feb.08.2009
rates this page 3/5

"Wroclaw was always Polish and Slavic tribes lived there pass a Berlin since 3000 years ago. This stuff is mentioned by Roman historian Tacyt - fair enough ? German barbarians looking for more land grab were pushing Slavs to the East, killing people, burning houses, stealing wealth, enslaving them and plotting against Poles for very long time - shame on you ! To add more proof, there is a Slavic Museum in Berlin showing archeological artifacts from that area. But it's not over yet. You've all heard about DNA, didn't you ? Then, this one is going to nail everyone still in daught ! Polish people has the same DNA Group "R1a" as Vikings, Danes and some English - look into the 10-th century events in Poland, Denmark and England - even Queen Elizabeth II mentioned something about Polish blood in her veins. Viking leader was actually from northern part of Poland - south shore of Baltic Sea, who first discovered America in 10-th century, before Cristobar Colon vel Columbus did at the end of 15-th century - 500 years earlier ! See DNA Haplogroups of Europe on webpage http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Y-MAP.GIF ; yellow color is "R1a" genuine Slavic. History of Poland (in Polish) on webpage http://halat.pl/drang_nach_osten.html showing the Polish western border (marked in red) with Roman Empire far west then current Polish border on river Odra. I hope this short story is going to clear people's minds, particularly those who were brainwashed by ideology. I'm 100% Polish and proud of it ! Toronto, Canada "

Toronto
Canada
Feb.08.2009
rates this page 3/5


"Anyone able to read German and interested in historical records re Wroclaw-Breslau may find the attached links helpful: http://www.rolf-freytag.de/digibib/digibib.php AND http://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=3930&dirids=1 "	Lerge United Kingdom Jan.29.2009 rates this page 3/5

"very good background on the disparity between breslau and wroclaw. i visited poland, and only travelled to warsaw and krakow, both beautiful places. of course, the first stops i made were to museums, and i learnt so much abt the polish-german history during the war, and even attended a commemoration of the polish jews who were killed in auswitzch. but after reading this article, i have a better understanding of the history behind a different polish town which i have not visited yet. thank you very much for this.. it's actually clearer than wiki."

Kristy C.
Sierra Leone
Jan.10.2009
rates this page 4/5

""...these days the Wroclawians genially welcome back the Germans as tourists looking to trace their former homes or those of their forefathers. They keep their consciences clean with the argument that whereas wrongs were done to many innocent Germans, much worse was done by the Germans to the Poles" "no one is keener to join them than the Germans, who more than any nation would like to encourage a 'forgive and forget' policy towards the events of the 20th century. This mutual acceptance of guilt serves the city of Wroclaw well. The Poles don't bring up the Germans' atrocities during the War, and in return the Germans don't ask for their city back." These passages are quoted from this very website, and highlights the fact that there are realities about current Polish/German relations that are left unresolved. "...vitriolic hatred that still stems forth after all these years..." still exists on both sides. It is an unfortunate reality. The issues are constantly misrepresented as there are agenda on both sides. The issues were, and are, much more complex than the Two Plus Four Agreement, The Marshall Plan (officially the European Recovery Program, ERP) and other "treaties" could fairly and competently address. That is one of the reasons why these feelings still exist. "

Ulrich
Germany
Jan.02.2009
rates this page 3/5

"I am planning to visit Poland for only the second time (my father was Polish and my mother was German, albeit from Breslau now Wroclaw). I was hoping this would be a site welcoming visitors to this beautiful country. Instead I am deeply saddened by the vitriolic hatred that still stems forth after all these years. This is the kind of stupid prejudice that starts wars in the first place. Move on - Polish towns have been given back to the polish and we should learn from our historical mistakes. Please do not spread malicious hatred on what should be a tourist website!"

Stefanie
United Kingdom
Jan.02.2009
rates this page 1/5

"Lieber Bismarck: Poland should not pay for reparations of lands lost. Firstly, Poland cannot afford it. Second, the Poles are minor in this charge. If you want to entertain the idea of reparations, you need to look to Russia, Great Britain, France, and the U.S. It was after all, those countries leaders that took it upon themselves to split off the eastern parts of Germany for war reparations to Poland and the Czech Republic. And, Russia decided to take Königsberg and East Berlin for herself. "

Der Germane
United States
Dec.12.2008
rates this page 3/5


"Poznan is Posen, Torun is Thorn, Bydgoszcz is Bromberg. All these cities were Germans. I believed Poland should pay compensation to all the Germans who have been expelled in 1945. "	Bismarck Switzerland Dec.12.2008 rates this page 3/5


"KRABAT means 'Croat' (if you know anything about Johannes Schadowitz - 17th century). Your treatment of history, Krabat, as something to be believed regardless of the facts reminds one of the nationalism written with a Z."	Emmet United Kingdom Dec.11.2008 rates this page 3/5

"Interesting how fact are distorted... Krabat. Your name...did you know it is from a German novel about a Wendish boy living in Sachsen who is a dark sorcerer's apprentice? Anyone can quote something out of context to misrepresent an idea. Good job! " You can never be sure who you individually are." What? Ever heard of genealogy? Tracing your family tree? A pedigree? Your ideas about language in Breslau are false. Your information about Breslau's history and your fact's about the other cities is also very incorrect. The correct information is out there. Please look it up. Ignorance is not always blissful. Your lack of understanding perpetuates Polish stereotypes. “Mais, mon ami, revenons à nos moutons”, eh? Did you read L' Avocat, by Patelin, but not a history book? Maybe the USSR or Polish 'official' versions of what happend, eh? And, no...no one wants war. "

Der Germane
United States
Dec.09.2008
rates this page 3/5

"Strange dispute I admit. Notwithstanding anything you all have posted I must say you don't read each other but everyone is singing his song alone. You want the examples? Here you are: The one named "Der Germane" is caiming that Germans have nothing to apologise for, because... it is a proud nation?!? (sic!). The Poles have no right to say they are Polish, because they borrowed several words from the languages of their neighbours including German! Yes that's true, but the conclusion is false "to the ground"! You can never be sure who you individually are. The "German" may be original Gypsy and "Pole" may be Jew. Mais revenons a nos moutons... The town Wroclaw/Breslau is now Polish and the Germans could regain it by another war if they are able to. No other chance. Do you want that, "Der Germane" or another "von Glockenstoffen"? The origin of Wroclaw was Polish and related to the Duke of Polans and later belonged to successive dukes of Piast dynasty of Silesian branch. The language of Silesia and Wroclaw was one of Polish Silesian dialects up to the 18 century when Silesia was invaded by the Kingdom of Preussen. The Preussen germans were very efficient in erasing any no-german features of the people including the language. Wroclaw the became at the end of 19 century the German speaking town and of course could be called "Breslau". The Germans lost their "Breslau" after the WWII, but it was their only fault! They couldn't agree to the "lost" of "their" towns as Poznan, Torun, Bydgoszcz, which they had from the partition of Poland in 18 century. Poland was not strong enough to regain Wroclaw alone, but when Germans lost the war which they started, wroclaw could be taken. I repeat - no chances to regain without a war. This is just a consequence of the war crimes of nazi Germany! Thank your fathers, mothers and granfathers and grandmothers or older who voted and applauded the "fuhrer"! Over. "

Krabat
Poland
Dec.09.2008
rates this page 3/5

" Lustration: You generally won't find this concept in English dictionaries. Defined, "Lustration" is the term describes the practice in post-Communist countries of exposing those who collaborated with the former regime and barring them from Public Office, Media jobs, etc. Whether it was meant to be like the Catholic tradition of confession and expiation or the Nuremberg process of ascribing blame has remained poorly defined in Poland. Whatever the purist intentions of Lustration may have been, it has been corrupted into a political weapon. Poland's lustration was ill-prepared and hastily executed. It achieved goals opposite to those intended Example: The contents of files were leaked before they had been evaluated. Aside from any potential legal violations there was unmistakable hateful, vindictiveness in the prosecution of the cases. Pursuing lustration only serves as an attempted distraction from more pressing current issues, and fortunately the electorate seems to be growing weary with this. It is a process that should be abandoned. Poland does not need Lustration. More at http://www.ce-review.org /00/30/rohozinska30.html"

Der Germane
United States
Oct.24.2008
rates this page 3/5

""Poland had to rebuild itself twice in the last century." What? POLAND did all by her lonesome? Let's only give credit where credit is due. After WWI: Woodrow Wilson decided Poland should regain it's political independence after the war. It was his 13th point of his famous "14 Points". Otherwise, The Act of November 5th of 1916 (a declaration of Emperors Wilhelm II of Germany and Franz Joseph of Austria) would've created a new Polish puppet State for the German Empire. Additionally, Polish-Americans contributed $18,472,800 to the reconstruction of Poland. It is estimated that over $20,000,000 was given to the Polish cause. The United States help rebuild Poland and Europe through partnerships with the major American banks. Post WWII: Communist Russia. In the modern day, Poland receives a lot of assistance from who? Germany (25.9% of Poland's Exports). Germany has also helped in the growth and development of Silesia."

Norway
Oct.24.2008
rates this page 3/5

""Resent events in Georgia also illustrated how strongly pro Russian German government still is. As always Germany was very quick to support its ally, but then had to shamefully retract." This statement is based on opinion, which is rooted in a preconceived misconception about Russian/ German relations. In fact, On April 24, a closed-door U.N. Security Council emergency session convened at Georgia’s request failed to resolve the dispute, but the U.S., the United Kingdom, France and Germany issued a joint statement expressing their concern over Russia’s recent moves in Abkhazia and calling Moscow to reverse or not to implement its decision to legalize ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Germany created the plan, and Georgia stated 16 April 2008, that if Russia did not accept the resolution, Georgia would be forced to "unilaterally bring an influence to bear on the deployment of armed forces in Abkhazia". It is true that Germany would like to see the European Union deepen its relations in both the Caucasus and Central Asia. German government spokesman Thomas Steg has stated that Germany supports Georgia's sovereignty. Steg said that Germany would likely redefine its future relations with Russia this autumn. He said there would be "good neighborly cooperation" built on a basis of common values. "But the application of military force and invading a sovereign state certainly aren't a part of these shared common values," he added. The EU foreign ministers recently agreed to take a closer look at EU-Russian relations in the fall, and Germany would do the same, he said.Berlin feels that Georgia needs more reforms and modernization before it can become a NATO member. According to Chancellor Merkel, Georgia is "...on a clear path to NATO membership." Seems Germany supports Georgia, not Russia. Reading helps."

United States
Oct.24.2008
rates this page 3/5

""So if we have large areas of "Germania" with Slavic lake, river and valley names, we can be sure that the ancestors of Germans settled there AFTER the Slavic people. There is no argument about that." In most cases, Germans were first in Germania. Slavs emerged from obscurity when the westward movement of Germans and Celts in the 5th and 6th centuries AD started the great migration of the Slavs, who settled the lands abandoned by Germanic tribes, moved westward into the country between the Oder and the Elbe-Saale line; southward into Bohemia, Moravia, much of present day Austria, the Pannonian plain and the Balkans; and northward along the upper Dnieper river.-a side note: In military matters, the Slavs were greatly influenced by the Goths. As Germans moved back East and pushed the Slavs back beyod the Oder, German settlers, in many cases, adopted the existing Wendish placenames. Also, there were a lot of Germanic/ Slavic name constructions, i.e. 'Altentreptow'. So, what does this mean? A Slavic placename, or Germanic for that matter, does not definitively indicate who settled there first. Sorry. ;-) "

United States
Oct.13.2008
rates this page 3/5


"Heinrich von Manteuffel: You are correct. It is one of the great injustices of history. Also, even though Poland was too weak to take the territories, Poland has always lusted after Silesia, East Prussia, West Prussia, Danzig, Pomerania, etc. They were given what they could not take. It was a Pyhrric Victory because they were gobbled up by Stalin and the Communist U.S.S.R."	Der Germane United States Oct.09.2008 rates this page 3/5


"Heinrich von Manteuffel: You are correct. It is one of the great injustices of history. Also, even though Poland was too weak to take the territories, Poland has always lusted after Silesia, East Prussia, West Prussia, Danzig, Pomerania, etc. They were given what they could not take. It was a Pyhrric Victory because they were gobbled up by Stalin and the Communist U.S.S.R."	Der Germane United States Oct.09.2008 rates this page 3/5


"Der Germane, I agree with you. Indeed what happened to Germany in 1945 has been a tragedy. A real trauma regarding the Eastern borders. The conference of Postdam is an injstice."	Henrich von Manteuffel Switzerland Oct.09.2008 rates this page 3/5

"Poland did not steal Breslau. Breslau became part of Poland under the terms of the Potsdam Conference. Stalin, Churchill, and Truman, as well as Attlee, who replaced Churchill as Prime Minister in 1945, took it upon themselves to give Breslau (and all of Silesia, Danzig, Pomerania, West Prussia and East Prussia) to Poland. Germany's eastern border shifted westwards to the Oder-Neiße line, effectively reducing Germany in size by approximately 25% compared to it's 1937 borders. The territories east of the new border comprised East Prussia, Silesia, West Prussia, and two thirds of Pomerania. These areas were mainly agricultural, with the exception of Upper Silesia which was the second largest center of German heavy industry. Polish government-in-exile had little to say in these decisions, but insisted on retaining the historic Polish city of Lwów (now L'viv) in Galicia, eastern Poland. Stalin refused to give it up and offered Lower Silesia with Breslau in exchange. Polish propaganda referred to the gifted (or annexed) territories as the "Regained or Recovered Territories" of Poland. Ultimately, the final agreements compensated Poland for 187,000 square kilometers of land located east of the Curzon line - Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union, with 112,000 km² of the 187,000 being former German territories. Blame Great Britain, The U.S., and The U.S.S.R...mainly Stalin and the U.S.S.R.! Poland didn't have the strength to take it. "

Der Germane
United States
Oct.08.2008
rates this page 3/5


"Breslau was a German city stolen by the Poles in 1945. Breslau was a German city, Breslau is a German and will stay a German city for ever ! Long live German Silesia ! German Breslau, German Stettin and German Koenigsberg "	Heinrich von Manteuffel Switzerland Oct.07.2008 rates this page 3/5


"Breslau was a German city stolen by the Poles in 1945. Breslau was a German city, Breslau is a German and will stay a German city for ever ! Long live German Silesia ! German Breslau, German Stettin and German Koenigsberg "	Heinrich von Manteuffel Switzerland Oct.07.2008 rates this page 3/5

""Russian provocateur"?? LOL!!! I think, Toomas, you mean to label me an "agent provocateur". Let's define it: An agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs) is a person assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate, or argument by or within a group while acting as a member of the group but covertly representing the interests of another. In general, agents provocateurs seek to disrupt a group's activities secretly from within the group. I'm a provocateur for railing against ignorance about German people, culture, and history? Hmmm... Now, on to "Pan Germanist"...not sure that's a bad thing. Germans, for the most part, had been a disunited people since the Reformation when the Holy Roman Empire was split into a patchwork of states. Why shouldn't people with similar culture and language not unify? Nobody mentions Pan-Slavism as a bad thing...double standard? Pangermanismus or Alldeutsche Bewegung (Pan-Germanism in English) didn't start until the 19th century. Pan-Slavism is an idea from the 17th century which gain momentum in the 19th century. "So if we have large areas of "Germania" with Slavic lake, river and valley names, we can be sure that the ancestors of Germans settled there AFTER the Slavic people. There is no argument about that." Hmmm...can we be sure, I think archaeology may reveal something different. Maybe a little research is in order here. I think there is some 'wishful thinking' going on! ;-) Read carefully: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." John Adams, 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,' December 1770"

Der Germane
United States
Oct.02.2008
rates this page 3/5


"As for the Slavic place names, names of the rivers, forests, lakes are considered the best indicators about who might have lived on the site before there were any literacy at all to file it. So if we have large areas of "Germania" with Slavic lake, river and valley names, we can be sure that the ancestors of Germans settled there AFTER the Slavic people. There is no argument about that."	Toomas United States Oct.01.2008 rates this page 3/5


"Having read the thread I must say that"Der Germane" remind a lot a Russian provocateur, just as we see them every day in our Estonian media. If he is not one, he surely is a pan-germanist with true goebbelsian skills"	Toomas Estonia Sep.30.2008 rates this page 3/5

""Thanks God brave Irish in their wisdom had voted NO to a Lisbon Treaty and put an end to it."- German President Horst Köhler will not sign off on the ratification of the EU's Lisbon Treaty unless the country's Constitutional Court decides the reform accord is compatible with Germany's Basic Law. The Lisbon Treaty faces challenges in Germany by Die Linke, a radical left-wing opposition party, and the ultra-conservative CSU: Christlich-Soziale Union in Bayern e.V. German MP Peter Gauweiler, a member of Bavaria's Christian Social Union (CSU), who sits in the Bundestag, asserts the Treaty unconstitutional. Poland's President, Parliament, and Senate ratified the Lisbon Treaty. Interesting reading here: http://www.eubusiness.com/ news-eu/1207135020.05/ Here: http://euobserver.com/9/25900 and Here: http://isip.sejm.gov.pl/servlet/ Search?todo=file&id=WDU20080620388 &type=2&name=D20080388.pdf"

Der Germane
United States
Sep.13.2008
rates this page 3/5

"Lerge: Nice sentiments. "...whilst here in Europe friendships are forged among former enemies who can now cross borders without fear and hindrance." It's the Government's of these countries that cause unrest. Individuals are surely forging friendships. To illustrate: "Dieter Bingen, Poland expert and director of the German Poland Institute in Darmstadt said that Polish politicians and media reports have recently cast a shadow on Germany's traditional image as "a strategic partner and reliable friend in Poland." Dieter Bingen also commented that "the majority of Poles are more mature and even-tempered and have had a good deal of positive experiences with Germany," source: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/ article/0,2144,2144777,00.html. Unfortunately, Governments, media outlets, religion, schools,etc., tend to shape the general opinions of the general population of a country."

Der Germane
United States
Sep.13.2008
rates this page 3/5


"http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/wrsynopsis.html You might be interested in the above link"	Invictus Canada Sep.10.2008 rates this page 3/5

"To understand the attitude of Poles towards the Germans, one needs to look at the history of polish literature going back at least 300 years. The hatred towards the Germans permeates through all of Poland's history. Just Google it and you'll see what I mean. Furthermore NO country in Europe has FALSIFIED it's own history as blatantly as Poland.....period. When the Germans were forced from their lands by Poles after the war, they left beautiful homes, farms, heavy industry, and all sorts of factories. Yes, the homes and factories are still there......in the same condition the Germans left them! No paint, little renovations, the roads still in the same condition as they were 60 years ago! Luckily for the Poles, the Germans built things the proper way, and that craftsmanship is evident still today. Poland rebuilt cities? Don't make me laugh. It was all paid for by the EU and especially the Germans. The only reason Poland joined the EU is to extract money, and they admitted as much. Other than that, what does the EU get in return? A swift kick in the butt comes to mind..... "

Invictus
Canada
Sep.10.2008
rates this page 3/5


"i was just looking up my last name and found it interesting to find out the history of it. pretty neat!"	Codi Breslau United States Sep.08.2008 rates this page 3/5

"I write as a true "LERGE" i.e. as a person born in the former Breslau, and one of the 15 million people thrown out of their ancestral homes. But I want to re-interpret "LERGE" in the following way: L.(=long ago) E.(=expelled)but now R. (=returning) with G.(=great) E.(= expectation) to meet some good Polish friends. "The hotbed for debate" seems to be situate in the US or even further afield, whilst here in Europe friendships are forged among former enemies who can now cross borders without fear and hindrance. As I write I am on my way to the Riesengebirge/Karkonosze Mountains having already been assured of a warm welcome there. "Great Politics"...o.k... Individuals, however, are much more effective as "ambassadors for peace". After all, my Polish friends did not expell me, nor did I kill their ancestors. Anf if we keep harking back to former centuries, there is no nation which has no reason to blush. "

Lerge
United Kingdom
Sep.05.2008
rates this page 3/5

"3/5? Awe, man! Lerge, good question. Breslau/Wroclaw, like any of the annexed East Prussian territories, is a hot bed for debate. The German/Slavic thing was sparked because there was mud slinging by several bloggers, some on the "Germanic side" and some on the "Slavic side". I became involved (as I happend by this site) to correct some ignorance, misinformation, and deceitful lies that were being promoted as facts. Having said that, here is more correction: "nationalistic and fascist fever is on the rise, effectively being fumed by economic disparity and parties like NPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany_(NPD), Die Preussische Treuhand, and BdV. I suggest you take a hard look at them first."- Virtually every German is aware of the organizations you have mentioned. It's like asking a Pole if he knows what Solidarność is!! Fascist Fever is on the rise, huh? Nationalism? Fascism? Where in Germany? Sounds like many places in Europe today, including Poland. Also, the NPD is the only political party you mentioned.Fyi. The others are organizations that aim to have political influence like the NAACP or the AARP. More on that later. Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD): The NPD is classified as extreme mainly because of a desire to dissolve the bureaucracy, or constitution, if it interferes with the ability of the "Volk" to preserve their traditions and way of life. The USA has something similar in it's Constitution. What's extreme about the people being able to hold it's government accountable? If the government works against the people, why keep it? Overall, the Party is whacked. See more at ttp://www.npd.de. Die Preußische Treuhand GmbH & Co. KG a. A.: It's members (less than 100)seek compensation from Poland and the Czech Republic, among others, for property from Germans expelled from territories which after World War II became parts of Poland and Czechoslovakia. They haven't been very effective. www.preussische-treuhand.org/default.htmIncidentally, you forgot to mention the Landsmannschaft Schlesien - Nieder- und Oberschlesien e.V. It is an organization of Germans born in the former Prussian provinces of Lower and Upper Silesia, or their descendants, who currently live in Germany. The associations membership is made up of people who were expelled or evacuated during World War II or after, as well as people who emigrated in more recent times, who are exercising their right to German citizenship, based on a 1913 German law. Lastly, Bund der Vertriebenen (BvD):www.bund-der-vertriebenen.de/...is a non-profit organization formed to represent the interests of Germans who either fled their homes in parts of Central and Eastern Europe, or were expelled following World War II. It is estimated that in the aftermath of World War II about 16 million ethnic Germans fled or were expelled from the East Prussian territories (present-day Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia (mostly from the Vojvodina region), the Kaliningrad Oblast (formerly Königsberg) area of Russia, Lithuania, Romania and other East European countries). The federation claims to represent the diaspora of ethnic Germans and their families which number approximately 15 million. Seems if these clubs were to gain real power, all of Eastern Europe would be in trouble. Yikes!"

Der German
United States
Sep.01.2008
rates this page 3/5


"Please, please, please let us have an end of the tedious point scoring between Slav and Germane. What has all this to do with Wroclaw/Breslau? My rating: Slav 1/5, Germane 3/5. Thanks!"	Lerge United Kingdom Aug.30.2008 rates this page 3/5

"Yes, you are vilifying Poland and you are judging it with typical ignorant German preconceived mindset. Nothing new here, no disappointments, I do not expect any objectivity from you. Regarding our experience, Poland had to rebuild itself twice in the last century. First in 1918 after 123 years of German, Austrian, and Russian occupation, this has been very challenging as people educated in three different countries had to put aside their differences for common cause, but it worked and Second Polish Republic came into being. Second Republic lasted up until German criminals and their Soviet allies invaded Poland in 1939. Second time came after communism collapsed in 1989, and this process still is under way. Still, there are people who before 1989 where loyal communist official and who will do anything to stay in power, if they could not hold on to it officially they would hold on to it surreptitiously. Today those same people occupy important post in Polish administration, military, media, and justice system. They form the corrupt structures that have direct ties with organized crime and pose imminent danger to our democracy and sovereignty. Imagine for a while how would DDR look like if there would be no West Germany to completely replace former communist officials, revamp, and overhaul its administration? It probably would be in much worst shape then Poland is in now, as Stasi and communist structures were rooted much deeper within East German society then Polish communists could ever dream of achieving in Poland. This is why Poland needs the Lustration, we need to disband corrupt structures in the same fashion West Germany did in former DDR. Then hopefully Poles will be able to regain trust in their administration. The government lead by PiS and prime minister Kaczynski was poised at doing exactly that, but the media induced hysteria (similar to what you displayed below) was very effective and during last elections PiS lost majority of parliamentary seats, and new government led by PO and prime minister Tusk came into being. Unfortunately Tusk and his “do nothing” leadership is more concerned with their image then with taking proper and effective steps to secure Poland’s independence and improve country’s economy. As you said they’re weak and indecisive, that’s why they are so liked by Germany and Russia. But East Germany and consequently Germany as a whole is not out of the woods yet as well, there still is a huge gap between east and west and nationalistic and fascist fever is on the rise, effectively being fumed by economic disparity and parties like NPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany_(NPD), Die Preussische Treuhand, and BdV. I suggest you take a hard look at them first. Resent events in Georgia also illustrated how strongly pro Russian German government still is. As always Germany was very quick to support its ally, but then had to shamefully retract. Would you care to explain why Poland should care what image it has within EU? EU’s indecisiveness regarding Georgia illustrated that in time of need it will fold over and do nothing. This isn’t new; old ways of appeasement is a primary EU’s strategy in dealing with a bully like Russia. EU has federalist ambitions but no stomach for a fight to keep the federation together. Thanks God brave Irish in their wisdom had voted NO to a Lisbon Treaty and put an end to it. Regarding supposed Polish homophobia, I am not sure what gay organizations really want? If they want tolerance it is already being tolerated. No one is prosecuting anyone in Poland solely on being gay. But if they want Polish government to promote their lifestyle it is not going to happen. We do not have heterosexual parades why should we allow homosexual ones? In our culture people do not put their sexuality on display, and if I, or my wife or other heterosexual couples will try to put a show that gays routinely do in Western Europe or here in S.F. Bay Area during their parades, we would be met with the same uproar. What would you call Poles then heterophobic? "

Slav
United States
Aug.28.2008
rates this page 1/5


"Having read all the posts in this interesting blog I note the disparity in racial insults hurled by each side... Sorry Slavs, but nearly every statement you make seems to contain a slur on the Germans. The German has said nothing derogatory against Slavs, and has quite openly and repeatedly said that slavic blood flows in his and all German viens. So, why the incessant anti-German diatribe? "	NICK DURHAM Ireland Aug.03.2008 rates this page 3/5

"Yes, the information is from the recent past, but the attitudes still exist in the Polish Government. Take hard look at some of the parties that are part of the Polish political scene. I am not vilifying Poland at all. How? Team Kaczynski was wildly popular in Poland, while it lasted. The players have changed, but the game still remains the same. Since 1989, successive governments have been hit by corruption scandals and with unemployment stubbornly refusing to come down from 20%, many Poles have lost faith in their elected representatives. Tusk and company already look like heroes in comparison to the Kaczynski circus. The current Polish PM Donald Tusk is trying to revamp Poland's damaged image in the E.U. He is also attempting to reform the damage that the Kaczynski's did to Poland. We will see how he fairs. He is not very decisive. Homophobia, Nationalism, and Populism are not strictly Russian traits, but do characterize attitudes that their government held and promoted, much like Poland. You are all emotional...my post doesn't prove that I know nothing of Poland or the USSR. "...willing to understand about current affairs in Poland and our experience." "our experience"? What do you mean? I hope it's not what I think you mean. "

Der Germane
United States
Aug.01.2008
rates this page 3/5

"I knew you know next to nothing about USSR, Russia or Poland and called you on it. I do not know what are your sources, but you have some very old information there. First LPR has been completely marginalized in Polish politics and does not even have any sits in the Sejm (Polish parliament) since 2007. Second and third, Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz is not Polish PM since 2005, and sadly PiS is not a ruling party. So it seems you need to update your newspaper clippings collection. When it comes to the issues, this is a typical mix of buzz words from German and sometimes European press that really only testifies to how little they and you know or how little they are willing to understand about current affairs in Poland and our experience. Also, you are not suggesting that homophobia, nationalism, and populism are strictly Russian traits, are you? One could come to a conclusion you are a disguised bigot and xenophobe. No, that's impossible, for such a progressive, tolerant, open minded and free of any stereotypes person as you that would seem out of character. Or not? You seem to drop all critical thinking faculties once it comes to vilifying Poles and Poland. I will discuss the "issues" you touched upon later when I have some spare time. Especially Lustration seems to be hugely misunderstood in Western world and in Poland itself too, as well as Polish take on homosexuality."

Slav
United States
Aug.01.2008
rates this page 1/5

""what are the similarities between Poland and Russia that allow you to draw that comparison?" 1.One of LPR leaders Wojciech Wierzejski has recently publicly announced that "batons should be used" on homosexual demonstrators during the Equality Parade in Warsaw, scheduled for June 10, 2008. 2.Wierzejski made a statement that foreign politicians and all who come to Poland to support the parade should also be dispersed by the police. 3. The Polish conservative government has a long record of voicing statements perceived as homophobic and nationalist in Europe. In addition to the recent Wierzejski controversy, Poland's PM Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz of the ruling PiS party promised state action against the public expressions or defense of homosexuality in Poland, while Jaros³aw Kaczyñski, the leader of PiS and president Kaczyñski's twin brother, suggested gays and lesbians should not teach in public schools.4. Poland's government is characterizing itself more and more as an "arch conservative populist" government (aka right-wing populist). The strategy of right-wing populism relies on a combination of ethno-nationalism with anti-elitist (populist) rhetoric and a radical critique of existing political institutions. Right-wing populist movements can be precursors for, and building blocks of, fascist movements. Conspiracist scapegoating employed by various populist movements can create "a seedbed for fascism." 5. "LUSTRATION"-the Polish government has passed a law demanding that “leading public figures” (journalists, academics,politicians, etc.) sign an oath stating that they are not, nor ever have been communists, and that they never “collaborated” with the old communist regime. Politically speaking, this means that any member state could unilaterally decide to disqualify its sitting MEPs and keep replacing them until it has ones it likes. Not very democratic, is it? The guy who runs the Beatroot Blog was told by Polish authorities that if he wanted to continue being a journalist in Poland, he had to sign the declaration. Seems Poland might be smothering freedom of speech and freedom of association using some good old USSR tactics. Need more? "

Der Germane
United States
Jul.31.2008
rates this page 3/5


""several other posts give wrong genders to German nouns."-Shovel you are right. I copied and pasted from a source and did not remember to correct the errors. Unfortunately, once you click "add your comments" there is no correcting mistakes. Sprechen Sie Deutsch? A fresh perspective is always welcome and interesting. "	Der Germane United States Jul.31.2008 rates this page 3/5

""Nazism did and always will be associated with Germany and Germans" - no arguement here, Slav. "Saying that some Nazis not Germans are to blame is simply laughable"-must be nervous laughter because it is true that not all Nazi's were German. I got your analogy- it was simply a bad one. You know I've never been to Poland by my comment about oland and the USSR? You are DEPP. "You are trying to divorce Nazism with Germany, but will eagerly tie Poland with communism." Not divorcing Germany from Nazism, and Poland was under Communism. Nothing 'eager' about that fact, it is true. As for your idea about "my logic", you are reaching to make a point. You are too emotional and too irrational. That is why you present yourself foolishly. Be constructive, not destructive."

Der Germane
United States
Jul.31.2008
rates this page 3/5


"Shovel, I appreciate your criticism, but if you could give few examples instead of making blanket statements that would really give your opinion some needed validity. "	Slav United States Jul.30.2008 rates this page 1/5

"Finally you are coming out as a true German apologist, trying to dilute well establish facts and switch the blame for German crimes to others. Get this Nazism did and always will be associated with Germany and Germans. Germans overwhelmingly embraced it and their government adopted it, then driven by this ideology triggered WW2, and committed countless atrocities. Saying that some Nazis not Germans are to blame is simply laughable. Soon you will try to tell me that Hitler was Polish, Goebbels Czech, and Goering Lithuanian. For a person that thinks of himself so highly one would think that you would be able to get a simple analogy. Well, I guess you are not a sharpest tool in the toolbox. Get this genius, I now Koresh did not represent Christians (even though he was one), that was the whole point. The same way Gorzelik does not represent Silesia or Silesians, me amongst them. He also is not looking to gain independence from Poland, you could get that from his statement/response (which I cited here) to Russian newspaper article. Yet another fact you made up. How do I know you have never been to Poland? By you comparing it to USSR, simple. And yes I will try you, what are the similarities between Poland and Russia that allow you to draw that comparison? That also speaks volumes what kind of hypocrite you are. You are trying to divorce Nazism with Germany, but will eagerly tie Poland with communism. Using your logic one could say that Lichtenstein is similar to 3rd Reich, after all it is so similar to Germany. Go get a life."

Slav
United States
Jul.30.2008
rates this page 1/5